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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RandyC 10-29-2020 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650192)
This was my last throw of 8 this morning. It kept turning till it almost landed. It's a Jade, speed 9 disc. It's my favorite driver right now even though it can get too flippy when Im fully warmed up.This one measured 350 feet.

https://youtu.be/P-NOMVMM4_k

Yep yep no wonder you want to turn from your rear side. You are backwards.

txmxer 10-29-2020 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650192)
This was my last throw of 8 this morning. It kept turning till it almost landed. It's a Jade, speed 9 disc. It's my favorite driver right now even though it can get too flippy when Im fully warmed up.This one measured 350 feet.

https://youtu.be/P-NOMVMM4_k

as much as I disagree with your technical description, I think you've done a good job of switching to left handed throwing for right hand dominant person. Congrats.

Most can't do that.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3650263)
as much as I disagree with your technical description, I think you've done a good job of switching to left handed throwing for right hand dominant person. Congrats.

Most can't do that.

Yeah, I'm probably never going back to righty except for putting.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3650258)
Yep yep no wonder you want to turn from your rear side. You are backwards.

Backwards?

RowingBoats 10-29-2020 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650192)
This was my last throw of 8 this morning. It kept turning till it almost landed. It's a Jade, speed 9 disc. It's my favorite driver right now even though it can get too flippy when Im fully warmed up.This one measured 350 feet.

https://youtu.be/P-NOMVMM4_k

But a couple months ago I saw you say you were at 360. Then yesterday you went out after practicing your rotation speed and added 30 feet! What gives?

RoDeO 10-29-2020 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3650274)
But a couple months ago I saw you say you were at 360. Then yesterday you went out after practicing your rotation speed and added 30 feet! What gives?

That 360 would of been my max throw that I occasionally hit. I hit that (and more) every time I throw now. My early morning throws generally don't net great distance results as it is pretty cold where I live in the mornings. Typically I was around the 320 feet max in the mornings. For the last three days it's been up around 350. That's "30 feet" on average. Later in the day I'm adding another 30 feet to that total now.

RandyC 10-29-2020 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650269)
Backwards?

https://i.imgur.com/ARdrQRk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vAcxbf4.jpg

You are going backwards both knees pointing away from the target.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3650324)
https://i.imgur.com/ARdrQRk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vAcxbf4.jpg

You are going backwards both knees pointing away from the target.

Is turning backwards from target bad? I've seen Eagle do it and he throws pretty good

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2020/u6mKvf.gif

SaROCaM 10-29-2020 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650334)
Is turning backwards from target bad? I've seen Eagle do it and he throws pretty good

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2020/u6mKvf.gif

You are walking backwards down the hallway and basically facing backwards at the start. Eagle is gliding sideways down the hallway and turning back.

NoseDownKing 10-29-2020 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650334)
Is turning backwards from target bad? I've seen Eagle do it and he throws pretty good



https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2020/u6mKvf.gif

Eagle is more sideways during the x-step. You're turning back too early.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

RoDeO 10-29-2020 04:44 PM

Is turning backwards bad?

RowingBoats 10-29-2020 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650334)
Is turning backwards from target bad? I've seen Eagle do it and he throws pretty good

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-29-2020/u6mKvf.gif

You have some intense confirmation bias when watching videos lol. Geesh.

RandyC 10-29-2020 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650344)
Is turning backwards bad?

Well in a sense you are not turning at all. You are just facing the otherway.

seedlings 10-29-2020 04:58 PM

It is entirely possible to take the worst circumstantial aspect of every professional thrower, put them together, and result with a brand new form. James Conrad often flips his pony tail to one side before lacing a 400’ wooded fairway with a putter. Clearly the causation of 400’ laser putter throws is pony tail rearrangement.

seedlings 10-29-2020 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3650344)
Is turning backwards bad?

Turning backwards is essential to giving most momentum to the hip twitch form. It allows for even more, faster rotation.

RoDeO 10-29-2020 05:26 PM

Ive played around with how much I turn rearward and distance readily comes better for me as I turn rearwards in my x step. For control medium range shots I don't turn as much.

twistedraven 11-04-2020 09:55 AM

I've made some noticeable gains to my distance and consistency with my driving recently! Back when I was stuck in maybe having 330-350 be a 'crush' of a drive, I was notably x-stepping backwards moreso than I am now. My entire approach was more linear along the teepad, with larger x-step foot that was facing backwards, with plant foot less staggered out in front of me. This lead to me having to forcefully rotate my hips as fast as I could to generate distance, and my brace wasn't as strong as it could be.

Recently, I've been taking a page out of Paul McBeth's book, and taking more of an angled approach (probably like 10 o' clock instead of 12' if comparing to a face clock) in in my walkup along the teepad when I go for a straight drive. I also simplified my approach down to 3 steps instead of 4. My x-step is muuuch smaller, just barely going past my initial step, and the angled approach helps my plant foot get much more separation and get much more staggered for my drive. Instead of x-stepping backwards and having to forcefully torque my hips around to generate power, I'm able to brace much better, and can feel the weight against my front hip. My thighs feel noticeably tired and sometimes sore after a day of play as well. Before I would get weird pain in the lower leg/upper ankle of my plant leg, but now that's a non-issue.

With the better brace and weight shift, I wasn't focusing on twisting as fast as possible, but just letting my body's movements play out naturally. Now my 'crushes' are 350-370 and even sometimes 390 on flat ground. I recently broke 400 on flat ground last week, and even had a 390 into headwind yesterday. On slight downhills (maybe no more than 10 feet of elevation difference) I'm getting 430-440 feet.

txmxer 11-04-2020 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedraven (Post 3652372)
I've made some noticeable gains to my distance and consistency with my driving recently! Back when I was stuck in maybe having 330-350 be a 'crush' of a drive, I was notably x-stepping backwards moreso than I am now. My entire approach was more linear along the teepad, with larger x-step foot that was facing backwards, with plant foot less staggered out in front of me. This lead to me having to forcefully rotate my hips as fast as I could to generate distance, and my brace wasn't as strong as it could be.

Recently, I've been taking a page out of Paul McBeth's book, and taking more of an angled approach (probably like 10 o' clock instead of 12' if comparing to a face clock) in in my walkup along the teepad when I go for a straight drive. I also simplified my approach down to 3 steps instead of 4. My x-step is muuuch smaller, just barely going past my initial step, and the angled approach helps my plant foot get much more separation and get much more staggered for my drive. Instead of x-stepping backwards and having to forcefully torque my hips around to generate power, I'm able to brace much better, and can feel the weight against my front hip. My thighs feel noticeably tired and sometimes sore after a day of play as well. Before I would get weird pain in the lower leg/upper ankle of my plant leg, but now that's a non-issue.

With the better brace and weight shift, I wasn't focusing on twisting as fast as possible, but just letting my body's movements play out naturally. Now my 'crushes' are 350-370 and even sometimes 390 on flat ground. I recently broke 400 on flat ground last week, and even had a 390 into headwind yesterday. On slight downhills (maybe no more than 10 feet of elevation difference) I'm getting 430-440 feet.


I’ve been thinking along these lines. I think your angle is allowing you to hold the disc a fraction longer imparting just a little more pop/whip.

I’m trying to do that myself.

RoDeO 11-04-2020 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedraven (Post 3652372)
I've made some noticeable gains to my distance and consistency with my driving recently! Back when I was stuck in maybe having 330-350 be a 'crush' of a drive, I was notably x-stepping backwards moreso than I am now. My entire approach was more linear along the teepad, with larger x-step foot that was facing backwards, with plant foot less staggered out in front of me. This lead to me having to forcefully rotate my hips as fast as I could to generate distance, and my brace wasn't as strong as it could be.

Recently, I've been taking a page out of Paul McBeth's book, and taking more of an angled approach (probably like 10 o' clock instead of 12' if comparing to a face clock) in in my walkup along the teepad when I go for a straight drive. I also simplified my approach down to 3 steps instead of 4. My x-step is muuuch smaller, just barely going past my initial step, and the angled approach helps my plant foot get much more separation and get much more staggered for my drive. Instead of x-stepping backwards and having to forcefully torque my hips around to generate power, I'm able to brace much better, and can feel the weight against my front hip. My thighs feel noticeably tired and sometimes sore after a day of play as well. Before I would get weird pain in the lower leg/upper ankle of my plant leg, but now that's a non-issue.

With the better brace and weight shift, I wasn't focusing on twisting as fast as possible, but just letting my body's movements play out naturally. Now my 'crushes' are 350-370 and even sometimes 390 on flat ground. I recently broke 400 on flat ground last week, and even had a 390 into headwind yesterday. On slight downhills (maybe no more than 10 feet of elevation difference) I'm getting 430-440 feet.

My best distance also comes with an angled teepad x step. It allows me to hold on to the disc longer.

sidewinder22 11-07-2020 12:43 AM

Paige talking about the hips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyV8411dObw#t=5m15s

txmxer 11-07-2020 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3653810)

She obviously isn’t paying attention to the wisdom of DGCR.

RoDeO 11-07-2020 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3653810)

Funny that she thinks the hips rotate after release. Proof that how one thinks they throw is different than reality. The hips rotate almost all the way before release.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-07-2020/8pited.gif

RandyC 11-07-2020 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3653832)
Funny that she thinks the hips rotate after release. Proof that how one thinks they throw is different than reality. The hips rotate almost all the way before release.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-07-2020/8pited.gif

Here we go again.
"You are wrong because insert proof here"
"No I am not, I throw 300ft+ therefore I am right"

txmxer 11-07-2020 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3653832)
Funny that she thinks the hips rotate after release. Proof that how one thinks they throw is different than reality. The hips rotate almost all the way before release.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-07-2020/8pited.gif

You are blind.

RoDeO 11-07-2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3653835)
Here we go again.
"You are wrong because insert proof here"
"No I am not, I throw 300ft+ therefore I am right"

It's simple- does her hips rotate from rearward to frontwards before the disc is released? YES.

RoDeO 11-07-2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3653846)
You are blind.

HOW SO? Are her hips rotating before release?

txmxer 11-07-2020 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3653940)
HOW SO? Are her hips rotating before release?

Leading or following?

Following.

oldmandiscer 11-07-2020 03:45 PM

You don't want to lead from the left side. It's bio mechanically incorrect and inefficient. Left knee shifts into the right side to allow the power/weight shift to translate into the hips/torso and then of course arm, forearm and wrist. Now if I could only do what I know what to do and break my own bad habits. I do have poor external hip mobility and ankle problems too though so it's hard for me to do what is correct. :gross:

RoDeO 11-07-2020 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3653990)
Leading or following?

Following.

Hips lead rotation.

seedlings 11-07-2020 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3654007)
Hips lead rotation.

If you said hips shift to lead leg, we’d all agree, because Paige thinks about this literally all the time.

RoDeO 11-07-2020 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3654083)
If you said hips shift to lead leg, we’d all agree, because Paige thinks about this literally all the time.

And as they shift rotation happens. It's not something you neccesarily feel so much but it is happening. PP is awesome, she's definitely the best female all around player in my opinion. But some of her instruction on what you should do is rather interesting to say the least.

UhhNegative 11-09-2020 11:52 AM

This shouldn't be an argument, Rodeo is 100% correct in that the hips start opening during the plant, before all weight is on the front foot. Is that useful information? Debatable, but its pretty easy to see if you look frame-by-frame. I think the timing is such that you couldn't really "try" to do this and its not very useful to think about.

Paul at point where hips are furthest turned back:

https://i.imgur.com/QA0MNkE.png

Paul at first point where all weight is on plant foot:

https://i.imgur.com/3Y81Ugf.png

Video if you want to frame-by-frame yourself:



You'll notice that Jerm, the worst backhand thrower of this group, actually starts opening up the hips much earlier than the other 3.

RoDeO 11-09-2020 12:41 PM

It's not really something you feel so much. It's just really important that one doesn't think "all" their weight shifts before any hip rotation happens. There are drills (I won't name them) out there that incorrectly teach to shift all the weight before any hip rotation. That's bad advice.

scooby snack 11-09-2020 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UhhNegative (Post 3654566)
This shouldn't be an argument, Rodeo is 100% correct in that the hips start opening during the plant, before all weight is on the front foot. Is that useful information? Debatable, but its pretty easy to see if you look frame-by-frame. I think the timing is such that you couldn't really "try" to do this and its not very useful to think about.

Paul at point where hips are furthest turned back:

https://i.imgur.com/QA0MNkE.png

Paul at first point where all weight is on plant foot:

https://i.imgur.com/3Y81Ugf.png

Video if you want to frame-by-frame yourself:



You'll notice that Jerm, the worst backhand thrower of this group, actually starts opening up the hips much earlier than the other 3.

Rodeo keeps pitching the idea that power comes from intentionally and forcefully rotating the hips, because he sees the pelvic bone and femur re-align as players shift their weight from rear foot, to front foot.

Hips play an important part in generating power, but it’s a lateral shift towards the target, not a forceful rotation as he advocates.

Notice how JK plants more open than the others. The re-alignment of his hips is more noticeable.

Rodeo likes to take the opposing view just to argue with people.

RowingBoats 11-09-2020 01:50 PM

This thread is just always going to be stuck in limbo because of the tactics being used. There are only a couple of actual possible points being made:

1.) Technically, hips open before the plant. This is a purely semantic point. Bio-mechanically it is correct to concede this point. No one here is making any argument against this premise. A still frame image will be shared to show this, and this fact is abused over and over by...someone here, to go on to say:

2.) Hips open before the plant in order to deliberately begin rotating from the rear, and this is the ideal disc golf form, the evidence being that this swing can be used to throw 350 feet! This point is then endlessly denied by players who throw much farther.

Repeat, forever, I guess.

UhhNegative 11-09-2020 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooby snack (Post 3654625)
Rodeo keeps pitching the idea that power comes from intentionally and forcefully rotating the hips, because he sees the pelvic bone and femur re-align as players shift their weight from rear foot, to front foot.

Hips play an important part in generating power, but it’s a lateral shift towards the target, not a forceful rotation as he advocates.

Notice how JK plants more open than the others. The re-alignment of his hips is more noticeable.

Rodeo likes to take the opposing view just to argue with people.

I agree, the rotation of the hips, when it actually matters, happens because of the brace.

RoDeO 11-09-2020 02:18 PM

Rotation of the hips is dynamic into and through the brace. It's not a result of the brace. The hips begin to rotate and load up and then the torso and upper body rotate and that is what powerfully ejects the disc. Even though one doesn't necessarily feel it, the core muscles around the midsection play a major role in how far the disc travels when thrown correctly.

sidewinder22 11-09-2020 04:24 PM

http://www.golfbytourmiss.com/2019/11/80046/
Downswing torso rotation

The third source of power from the body is torso rotation, which has been called a proximal – to – distal (pelvis before shoulders/thorax) rotation or a kinematic sequence. The main reason that this is so important is that the large, powerful core muscles of the body get stretched during the backswing and can therefore contract more forcefully during the downswing, much like the stretched elastic of a slingshot-catapult releases more forcefully. As the golfer pushes backwards through the trail foot and forwards through the lead foot (measured as antero-posterior shear forces through force plates), to create stability in those directions, the powerful trail side core muscles use the ground as purchase to rotate forcefully off of.
This movement will happen without a golfer’s volition, because stretched muscles will contract!

Once again, research has shown that more skilled golfers are able to rotate to faster. In the words of Okuda et al. (“Trunk Rotation and Weight Transfer Patterns between Skilled and Low Skilled Golfers”, 2010, rotation in the https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...7954/),“Pelvic horizontal rotation*in the downswing motion occurred significantly earlier with a rapid weight transfer to the lead foot in the skilled golfers while the low skilled golfers showed a delay in these motions”.

There are two important points we can assess from the study. Firstly, less skilled golfers cannot rotate and shift weight as fast, so perhaps the weight may not get shifted adequately to the lead foot before rotation begins, leaving “weight” behind and perhaps creating curved shots.

Secondly, note that the authors refer to the rotation as a “pelvic horizontal rotation”. However, golfers are typically asked to make a backswing by rotating the shoulders around a spine which is flexed forwards at address, resulting in an oblique position of the torso at the top of the backswing. From this position, a golfer’s pelvis is expected to fire on a mainly horizontal plane during late backswing or early downswing. As mentioned earlier, muscles that are stretched contract more forcefully. Which muscles have been stretched to be able to produce a horizontal downswing rotation from an oblique top of backswing torso position? The main muscle group for forceful downswing torso rotation is the trail side external oblique. This muscle group has both vertical and horizontal fibres. When the torso is rotated obliquely, the vertical fibres may be stretched to a greater extent, resulting in a more downward rather than targetward movement of the torso, and perhaps a more steep shoulder path (and thus arms-, and club-path) than desirable.

And once again, therefore, the solution for all golfers (even if they’re highly skilled, because under certain circumstances and with certain body positions, their bodies too become incapable of correct sequencing of the many downswing movements) is to position the body so that there is minimal and optimally timed torso rotation.
* * * * * * * *

RoDeO 11-09-2020 06:25 PM

I remember when I first started, everything was slow and out of time. Then as I progressed my speed and timing improved. Distance wise, the gains I have seen come from getting faster rotation through the zone- conditioning the muscles. The correct timing adds a wee bit more. Getting the hips rotating and then the torso and on up the kinetic chain is mostly about developing the muscle groups to fire faster and more effectively with power. My theory on this is that as a player progresses and gets better they can rotate much quicker and as such can delay just a bit longer to unwind. It's why you see the pros able to delay until the very last and then everything happens very quickly and explosively. Thus it can give the illusion that the hips aren't rotating until the front foot has firmly planted. The reality is that they are rotating coming into foot plant. Its just that they can delay just a bit longer than amateurs because they can rotate faster later.

sidewinder22 11-09-2020 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3654818)
My theory on this is that as a player progresses and gets better they can rotate much quicker and as such can delay just a bit longer to unwind. It's why you see the pros able to delay until the very last and then everything happens very quickly and explosively. Thus it can give the illusion that the hips aren't rotating until the front foot has firmly planted. The reality is that they are rotating coming into foot plant. Its just that they can delay just a bit longer than amateurs because they can rotate faster later.

Pros can delay longer because they actually counter-rotate more with better balance/posture and backswing sequence.

Most Ams hit the top of the backswing too early/too far away from plant and out of sequence and lean/tipped off balance.

It doesn't take muscle conditioning or explosion to change these flaws, it requires learning a different movement pattern, and mindset, concept or swing philosophy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=2m3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=3m45s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujq9aANGQe4#t=4m15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpA_NL2c0qg#t=1m20s


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