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RoDeO 10-16-2020 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644646)
Okay. You are cut in half from the pelvis up. The only way to turn your shoulders 90 degrees would be to lift yourself up with your arms. That is because if you do not have hips the rotating system in our body would be the ballsocket in our shoulders but they are not located under the torso thus they cannot really turn the torso unless you lift yourself.

So to say that shoulders turn before the hips is impossible because hips are the ballsocket system that turns the shoulders get it?

Yeah I understand what you are saying- hips rotate the shoulders. In the video of the swivel door he is pulling the door with his arms and his shoulders turn first.

RandyC 10-16-2020 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644648)
Yeah I understand what you are saying- hips rotate the shoulders. In the video of the swivel door he is pulling the door with his arms and his shoulders turn first.

That would be only possible if he was turning from the rear leg, that would be "leading" with the shoulders.

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644599)
Just remember in the swivel door drill that the arm isn't pulling the disc like you do in the door.

https://media.giphy.com/media/h4Z6RfuQycdiM/giphy.gif

RoDeO 10-16-2020 09:33 AM

The door drill actually perfectly illustrates our misconceptions with the kinetic sequence. Even though it's a different action of pulling the door to swivel around I can demonstrate that to turn it forcefully and powerfully there must be a transition phase of weight shift between the rear to front leg and that during that transition you need to start turning/rotating the hip before you start to powerfully pull on the door. The hips allow the kinetic sequence to happen as you first engage the hip rotation which then turn the torso and shoulders. The weight shift occurs during that sequence so that you generate the most power. One could begin to pull from the front leg with all the weight shifted, without any hipbrotation, as seen in the video, but there isn't nearly as much leverage or power in that. Basically, you are just using all arm. It's why I said it may be the perfect drill to help others realize the difference between proper hip engagement vs. all arming the disc.

azplaya25 10-16-2020 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644680)
The door drill actually perfectly illustrates our misconceptions with the kinetic sequence. Even though it's a different action of pulling the door to swivel around I can demonstrate that to turn it forcefully and powerfully there must be a transition phase of weight shift between the rear to front leg and that during that transition you need to start turning/rotating the hip before you start to powerfully pull on the door. The hips allow the kinetic sequence to happen as you first engage the hip rotation which then turn the torso and shoulders. The weight shift occurs during that sequence so that you generate the most power. One could begin to pull from the front leg with all the weight shifted, without any hipbrotation, as seen in the video, but there isn't nearly as much leverage or power in that. Basically, you are just using all arm. It's why I said it may be the perfect drill to help others realize the difference between proper hip engagement vs. all arming the disc.


This is so inaccurate and I donít understand why you preach this nonsense like it is gospel. It this video, he is pulling with his lats while braced against the front side. This is way different than strong arming.
What you are implying is that he should walk up to that door and start rotating his hips as he moves his weight from front to back, while holding on to the door but not pulling it until his weight transfers? Why donít you try that? Find a rotating door and try to swing it using your strategy, then do it the way heís describing in this video, and see which way is more powerful.

Between you with your delusions about hip rotation and Casey with his delusions about molds and plastics, people are going to have a hard time wading through all the fake news around here.

GoobyPls 10-16-2020 12:26 PM

I'm in the middle of blowing up my form and starting from scratch, and decided to visit this forum for a refresher. What the hell did I just read in this thread.

In Rodeo's defense, I will say that there are very rarely some tips from pros that are flat out wrong. For example, Uli put out a forehand video this week where he says to keep the elbow tucked close to the body. Then in his demonstration, his elbow is away from his body, because he doesn't actually throw like that (even though he probably thinks he does). Jessica Weese said and did the exact same thing in her forehand tips video a couple of years ago. I definitely don't think that's what's going on in this thread, but let's not pretend like it never happens at all.


SaROCaM 10-16-2020 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644680)
The door drill actually perfectly illustrates our misconceptions with the kinetic sequence. Even though it's a different action of pulling the door to swivel around I can demonstrate that to turn it forcefully and powerfully there must be a transition phase of weight shift between the rear to front leg and that during that transition you need to start turning/rotating the hip before you start to powerfully pull on the door. The hips allow the kinetic sequence to happen as you first engage the hip rotation which then turn the torso and shoulders. The weight shift occurs during that sequence so that you generate the most power. One could begin to pull from the front leg with all the weight shifted, without any hipbrotation, as seen in the video, but there isn't nearly as much leverage or power in that. Basically, you are just using all arm. It's why I said it may be the perfect drill to help others realize the difference between proper hip engagement vs. all arming the disc.

Let's have a 1v1 tug of war. Let's also assume we have equal strength and mass. I get to shift my weight in the direction I'm pulling and pull from there. You don't get to shift your weight in the direction you are pulling. You have to initiate your pulling with hip rotation. Who will win the tug of war?

RoDeO 10-16-2020 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3644711)
This is so inaccurate and I donít understand why you preach this nonsense like it is gospel. It this video, he is pulling with his lats while braced against the front side. This is way different than strong arming.
What you are implying is that he should walk up to that door and start rotating his hips as he moves his weight from front to back, while holding on to the door but not pulling it until his weight transfers? Why donít you try that? Find a rotating door and try to swing it using your strategy, then do it the way heís describing in this video, and see which way is more powerful.

Between you with your delusions about hip rotation and Casey with his delusions about molds and plastics, people are going to have a hard time wading through all the fake news around here.

I was reading on another post where you said you have been playing 10 years and can't feel the brace, hit, etc. It probably occurred to you that your timing and sequence is off. I can understand where if you've been doing something for a decade how hard it is to feel something totally different.

When you start a lawnmower you start with your feet sideways and your torso rotated 90 degrees facing the pull string. As you go to make your pull your weight starts on the back leg and then as you transition to the front leg your hips begin to rotate while your torso lags behind. That load up creates the power to pull with your body not just your arm. It's the same with the revolving door. If you plant all your weight onto your front leg with no initial rotation before you pull you lose all your leverage of your body to rotate and pull the door.

This GIF may better illustrate what I trying to say. Watch the hips rotate through the weight shift.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2020/hQm9TQ.gif

RoDeO 10-16-2020 01:17 PM

Here's Sidewinder in his door frame drill. Watch his hips turn as the weight transitions from rear to front foot while his pull and rotation of the upper body lags behind that rotation of the hips. This is what I'm talking about. Your weight doesn't fully shift to the front before the hips turn and you pull. The hips turn during weight shift and the upper body lags behind a bit creating that twist or torque and the it pulls through powerfully.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2020/i53RrN.gif

azplaya25 10-16-2020 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644770)
I was reading on another post where you said you have been playing 10 years and can't feel the brace, hit, etc. It probably occurred to you that your timing and sequence is off. I can understand where if you've been doing something for a decade how hard it is to feel something totally different.

When you start a lawnmower you start with your feet sideways and your torso rotated 90 degrees facing the pull string. As you go to make your pull your weight starts on the back leg and then as you transition to the front leg your hips begin to rotate while your torso lags behind. That load up creates the power to pull with your body not just your arm. It's the same with the revolving door. If you plant all your weight onto your front leg with no initial rotation before you pull you lose all your leverage of your body to rotate and pull the door.

This GIF may better illustrate what I trying to say. Watch the hips rotate through the weight shift.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2020/hQm9TQ.gif

Ha I saw you posting nonsense in my form thread and chose to ignore it.

Iíve been opening my hips early and trying to throw off my back leg since I discovered disc golf 10 years ago. Give it another 10 years and youíll be exactly where I am now.

Regarding your lawnmower example - you are saying to start pulling on the string while your weight is on your back leg?

azplaya25 10-16-2020 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644773)
Here's Sidewinder in his door frame drill. Watch his hips turn as the weight transitions from rear to front foot while his pull and rotation of the upper body lags behind that rotation of the hips. This is what I'm talking about. Your weight doesn't fully shift to the front before the hips turn and you pull. The hips turn during weight shift and the upper body lags behind a bit creating that twist or torque and the it pulls through powerfully.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2020/i53RrN.gif

This is the last time Iím responding to you, life is to short to spend time trying to explain thing to people who refuse to open their minds and consider other ideas. The gif you posted where you are rotating your hips into the brace is exactly the problem Iíve been trying to fix for the past 6 months. That is not what sidewinder is doing. It may look the same to you but it is completely different. Look at his body positioning, the disc is still behind his body and he already has all of his weight on his front leg. In the gif you posted, your weight hasnít fully shifted until your hand is in front of your body. Thatís a big difference! Go to this lawnmower you are talking about, grab the string, and pull on it with all your weight on your back leg. Now put all your weight on your front leg and try it again. Surely you can feel the difference.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3644794)
This is the last time Iím responding to you, life is to short to spend time trying to explain thing to people who refuse to open their minds and consider other ideas. The gif you posted where you are rotating your hips into the brace is exactly the problem Iíve been trying to fix for the past 6 months. That is not what sidewinder is doing. It may look the same to you but it is completely different. Look at his body positioning, the disc is still behind his body and he already has all of his weight on his front leg. In the gif you posted, your weight hasnít fully shifted until your hand is in front of your body. Thatís a big difference! Go to this lawnmower you are talking about, grab the string, and pull on it with all your weight on your back leg. Now put all your weight on your front leg and try it again. Surely you can feel the difference.

Im trying to illustrate the point of how your hips turn or engage before the weight shift. In Sidewinders throw his weight shifts just after the front heel comes down. At that precise moment, like I've always said, his hips are already half way through their total rotation. The upper body lags behind in irs rotation.

azplaya25 10-16-2020 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644800)
Im trying to illustrate the point of how your hips turn or engage before the weight shift. In Sidewinders throw his weight shifts just after the front heel comes down. At that precise moment, like I've always said, his hips are already half way through their total rotation. The upper body lags behind in irs rotation.

Alright I lied, one more response...you seem to be minimizing the impact of what you believe and what you are promoting to others. This is a fundamental part of throwing correctly. The gif you posted where you trying to demonstrate how your hips rotate into the weight shift - that is completely wrong and bad form. It’s clear that you don’t understand the concept of “shifting from behind”, but it’s one of the most important parts of this whole thing. That concept is what I said I’ve had trouble with in my form thread. I’ve played sports my whole life and never understood the idea of shifting from behind. I finally understand it now but getting a feel for it after shifting incorrectly for so long is really difficult. You are not shifting from behind, you are shifting from in front of you. Until you understand the difference I really think you are doing this entire community an injustice by giving form advice.

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644800)
Im trying to illustrate the point of how your hips turn or engage before the weight shift. In Sidewinders throw his weight shifts just after the front heel comes down. At that precise moment, like I've always said, his hips are already half way through their total rotation. The upper body lags behind in irs rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQMV3oHs6Ug#t=1m25s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvvF6eW-by8#t=4m

RandyC 10-16-2020 04:19 PM

Tbh itīs a correct sequence there what you are doing, very fluid and smooth. Itīs just not a very good way to throw. As azplaya stated you are shifting from the front which is why your shoulders are flying open and SW has his shoulders back at heel plant.
Essentially this is what you are doing https://image.freepik.com/free-photo...e_1112-381.jpg

RoDeO 10-16-2020 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644821)
Tbh itīs a correct sequence there what you are doing, very fluid and smooth. Itīs just not a very good way to throw. As azplaya stated you are shifting from the front which is why your shoulders are flying open and SW has his shoulders back at heel plant.
Essentially this is what you are doing https://image.freepik.com/free-photo...e_1112-381.jpg

Well, you are way off on how you think I throw.
If that were the case I shouldn't be throwing as far as I am after 3 months.

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644619)
Humm.. I watched it again and didn't see it. It looks to me like he shifts his weight to the front leg and then he pulls the door with his arm and the shoulders lead rotation before the hips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644648)
Yeah I understand what you are saying- hips rotate the shoulders. In the video of the swivel door he is pulling the door with his arms and his shoulders turn first.

I think you need some better glasses.

RandyC 10-16-2020 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644826)
Well, you are way off on how you think I throw.
If that were the case I shouldn't be throwing as far as I am after 3 months.

It is really hard to fight against anatomy, no matter how you look at it. What is "far" after 3 months?

RoDeO 10-16-2020 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3644816)
Alright I lied, one more response...you seem to be minimizing the impact of what you believe and what you are promoting to others. This is a fundamental part of throwing correctly. The gif you posted where you trying to demonstrate how your hips rotate into the weight shift - that is completely wrong and bad form. Itís clear that you donít understand the concept of ďshifting from behindĒ, but itís one of the most important parts of this whole thing. That concept is what I said Iíve had trouble with in my form thread. Iíve played sports my whole life and never understood the idea of shifting from behind. I finally understand it now but getting a feel for it after shifting incorrectly for so long is really difficult. You are not shifting from behind, you are shifting from in front of you. Until you understand the difference I really think you are doing this entire community an injustice by giving form advice.

Okay, let's be honest. You say you've been olaying for 10 years or so? What is your average drive distance?
Im not making a contest or anything, just saying that you seem pretty athletic and that after 10 years you should probably be driving 400-450 feet pretty easily. But you are not. You yourself have admitted to some fundamental timing issues and not understanding weight transfer, hips, brace, etc.
I've been playing 3 months and understand those things and I believe it shows in the distance I'm getting so far.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644829)
It is really hard to fight against anatomy, no matter how you look at it. What is "far" after 3 months?

"Far" and "as far" are two different relative concepts.
I didn't say O was throwing "far". I said "as far". Like this morning, I was working on my hyzer flips and getting them out to 330-360. I had one that I really cranked on and it flipped up but then just turned its whole flight and right when it hit the ground it was just starting to want to fight out of the turn. I wished I gor it up higher to get a s flight. I only got that one up 6-8 feet off the ground though. It went 365 feet. I dont know how far it would have gone had I given it more height but maybe another 20-40 feet is fair.

I'm hitting 350 feet pretty regular now when warmed up. I think that's pretty good distance for my age (47) and how long I've been playing (3 1/2 months).

seedlings 10-16-2020 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644843)
"Far" and "as far" are two different relative concepts.
I didn't say O was throwing "far". I said "as far". Like this morning, I was working on my hyzer flips and getting them out to 330-360. I had one that I really cranked on and it flipped up but then just turned its whole flight and right when it hit the ground it was just starting to want to fight out of the turn. I wished I gor it up higher to get a s flight. I only got that one up 6-8 feet off the ground though. It went 365 feet. I dont know how far it would have gone had I given it more height but maybe another 20-40 feet is fair.

I'm hitting 350 feet pretty regular now when warmed up. I think that's pretty good distance for my age (47) and how long I've been playing (3 1/2 months).

I’m age 46, 5’ 9” and 210 lbs with short arms and chubby fingers. I started playing in June 2020. I am so happy your skills work for you. The alternative advice I’ve read here has me over 400’ with 442’ my max. I land pin high on 300’-370’ holes on the course. I miss the putts, but the drives are ok. YMMV.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3644846)
Iím age 46, 5í 9Ē and 210 lbs with short arms and chubby fingers. I started playing in June 2020. I am so happy your skills work for you. The alternative advice Iíve read here has me over 400í with 442í my max. I land pin high on 300í-370í holes on the course. I miss the putts, but the drives are ok. YMMV.

Sounds pretty sweet. I would say your distance is an anomaly though- way above average. I think I'm above average also. As far as I can tell, and from the PDGA, the average drive of a player (novice) with our experience is between 175-250 feet. And from my experience out on the courses and talking to others that's about exactly correct.

azplaya25 10-16-2020 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644831)
Okay, let's be honest. You say you've been olaying for 10 years or so? What is your average drive distance?
Im not making a contest or anything, just saying that you seem pretty athletic and that after 10 years you should probably be driving 400-450 feet pretty easily. But you are not. You yourself have admitted to some fundamental timing issues and not understanding weight transfer, hips, brace, etc.
I've been playing 3 months and understand those things and I believe it shows in the distance I'm getting so far.


Iíve played for 10 years off and on, and just for fun. I never filmed my throw or even thought about form. Itís funny that you are of the opinion that just playing disc golf for a longer period of time will lead to someone throwing further. If you have bad form, no amount of time will lead to more distance. If anything, youíre building muscle memory that will just be harder and harder to break.

I didnít start trying to figure out correct form until this past April. So for all intents and purposes, you and I have a similar amount of time invested in improving form. I can get my fairway drivers out to 330ish. Iíve thrown faster discs like escapes and valks around 370ish. Iíve had pretty rapid improvement just like you, I couldnít throw 200 feet when I started in April. I got up to 350ish in about 3 months, but I donít expect much more distance til I fix some form issues so Iím not even trying to throw far at this point

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644831)
Okay, let's be honest. You say you've been olaying for 10 years or so? What is your average drive distance?
Im not making a contest or anything, just saying that you seem pretty athletic and that after 10 years you should probably be driving 400-450 feet pretty easily. But you are not. You yourself have admitted to some fundamental timing issues and not understanding weight transfer, hips, brace, etc.
I've been playing 3 months and understand those things and I believe it shows in the distance I'm getting so far.

To be honest it does seem like you are trying to make it a pissing contest, and in general being a real jerk. You have admitted your baseball background has translated to your lefty throw, but it did't for your righty throw and even knowing what you know, you tried to throw righty again and still can't stop strong arming it.

He has 10 years of bad habits to unlearn after never focusing on form, but IMO he has made some great progress in about 3 months of work...
Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3566953)
Been playing for about 10 years but I've never focused on improving form. Typically putter throws go about 190ish. Not sure how to slow down the vid but hopefully y'all can give me some tips from this. Definitely feel like my timing may be off with the brace and hit.

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3607331)
I've had some really good throws the past couple of days. Throwing my Rocs past where I had been throwing my eagles. Shot 3 under at my home course today and almost aced a hole with my star eagle that I hadn't ever even been close enough to birdie before.

Here's a Roc throw that went about 310

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2020/Ng6FsX.gif

Had some better throws after this once I turned off the camera. I'm realzing that the door frame drill is so key to everything. I used to try to generate lag with big wide rail or by "timing" everything right, but now I'm discovering that lag just happens if you get that butt toward the target in the backswing. The more I get my left butt towards the target, the more I get that wound up feeling that just explodes through the hit. Still probably have some things to clean up and haven't even attempted an x-step, but excited with the progress.


SaROCaM 10-16-2020 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644853)
Sounds pretty sweet. I would say your distance is an anomaly though- way above average. I think I'm above average also. As far as I can tell, and from the PDGA, the average drive of a player (novice) with our experience is between 175-250 feet. And from my experience out on the courses and talking to others that's about exactly correct.

How many of those average novices are out there chucking and having fun, and how many are poring over form videos and critiques? A better comparison would be between players with more involved approaches to developing their throw.

We do have a suitable comparison: you and seedlings are about the same age and have comparable experience. Yet seedlings is throwing over 400 while you are still only imagining having that distance. What accounts for the difference?

Seems like your build would give you a mechanical advantage over seedlings, so why aren't you throwing over 400' also?

You have basically the same amount of time throwing, so it's not like there is a difference in time spent developing "muscular explosiveness" like you emphasize.

Here's one notable difference:

One of you is open to coaching from sources with demonstrated success in coaching/throwing, while the other is stubbornly holding onto a theory that is rooted in observations/analysis of a novice (in multiple disciplines), not to mention often conflicts with established principles of physics and biomechanics. You don't know what you don't know, and that is limiting your ability. The knowledge you have gained is blinding you to the knowledge you lack. Again, the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3644857)
To be honest it does seem like you are trying to make it a pissing contest, and in general being a real jerk. You have admitted your baseball background has translated to your lefty throw, but it did't for your righty throw and even knowing what you know, you tried to throw righty again and still can't stop strong arming it.

He has 10 years of bad habits to unlearn after never focusing on form, but IMO he has made some great progress in about 3 months of work...

It's just frustrating when you have it figured out and get it and no one wants to believe you or think you are blowing smoke. Growing up liking and playing baseball and coaching definitely helped with throwing lefty. To be honest I look at the video and see a hybrid throw of mostly arming the disc on the one hand, and trying to use the body also on the other. His distance progression is helping get the disc out farther but it appears to me he isn't really getting very much yet out of his hips and torso. I think it's great he is making progress. I know if I was still throwing rightly I would be lacking almost a 100 feet on average of what I throwing lefty.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3644868)
How many of those average novices are out there chucking and having fun, and how many are poring over form videos and critiques? A better comparison would be between players with more involved approaches to developing their throw.

We do have a suitable comparison: you and seedlings are about the same age and have comparable experience. Yet seedlings is throwing over 400 while you are still only imagining having that distance. What accounts for the difference?

Seems like your build would give you a mechanical advantage over seedlings, so why aren't you throwing over 400' also?

You have basically the same amount of time throwing, so it's not like there is a difference in time spent developing "muscular explosiveness" like you emphasize.

Here's one notable difference:

One of you is open to coaching from sources with demonstrated success in coaching/throwing, while the other is stubbornly holding onto a theory that is rooted in observations/analysis of a novice (in multiple disciplines), not to mention often conflicts with established principles of physics and biomechanics. You don't know what you don't know, and that is limiting your ability. The knowledge you have gained is blinding you to the knowledge you lack. Again, the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

Your basis is deeply flawed. There is no real evidence that proves your point. Seedlings distance is an anomaly for his age and experience. His isn't average. Neither is mine. We are both above the average, his is just above me. You can't compare me to him like that and say that I don't throw far like him because I hold on to some theory that you think is flawed.

I'm actually advocating to throw like Sidewinder in his video- the part where he actually throws. I am not advocating for some of what he says. Why? Because he says what he thinks he is doing but the video evidence shows something different. Sidewinder actually has pretty good mechanics. If I was to teach someone how to throw I would use the throwing parts of his video where he is actually throwing and not use the parts where he talks about what he thinks he is doing.

seedlings 10-16-2020 07:38 PM

FWIW, any adult who is determined to improve their form via the plethora of videos, diagrams and drills can throw 400í+. I know this because when I throw with all my might itís just a boring 275í. But when I throw with technique, I am dumbfounded for how little effort it took.

I still retreat to the hard work throws, but the disciplined technique throws are happening more often. The easy throws usually come when Iím thinking about shot placement and completely forget to remind myself all the drills.

BUT! I play with guys who donít work on form. They throw 275í. If their placement is better than mine, the distance is of no use. I can be pin high in the woods, while they are 120í short of the pin. They par and I bogey.

If local courses had 800í wide open par 5s, Iíd kick their butts. As it is, 275í max distance will get you under par on most courses.

I am hoping that disciplined work on form will get me accuracy. Thatís really what I want. I donít need to throw farther. If my drives stayed within a 15 degree wide window instead of a 30 degree wide window, man Iíd hit so many fewer trees. It is so disappointing to be able to throw it to the 368í pin, but hit a tree 50í from the tee and get out driven...

RoDeO 10-16-2020 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3644894)
FWIW, any adult who is determined to improve their form via the plethora of videos, diagrams and drills can throw 400’+. I know this because when I throw with all my might it’s just a boring 275’. But when I throw with technique, I am dumbfounded for how little effort it took.

I still retreat to the hard work throws, but the disciplined technique throws are happening more often. The easy throws usually come when I’m thinking about shot placement and completely forget to remind myself all the drills.

BUT! I play with guys who don’t work on form. They throw 275’. If their placement is better than mine, the distance is of no use. I can be pin high in the woods, while they are 120’ short of the pin. They par and I bogey.

If local courses had 800’ wide open par 5s, I’d kick their butts. As it is, 275’ max distance will get you under par on most courses.

I am hoping that disciplined work on form will get me accuracy. That’s really what I want. I don’t need to throw farther. If my drives stayed within a 15 degree wide window instead of a 30 degree wide window, man I’d hit so many fewer trees. It is so disappointing to be able to throw it to the 368’ pin, but hit a tree 50’ from the tee and get out driven...

I fully agree. Throwing lefty hss been a blessing because it's my non dominant arm. I've never done anything meaningful left handed until I learned LHBH. Its a blessing because I have to use technique to even throw it any distance. My arm strength and coordination with my left arm is pathetic compared to my right. It's why I will still throw rightly for layup shots because I jave way better motor skill right armed. But, using technique and form over muscle (from the arm itself) I can throw a good 100 feet farther from my weaker side.

SaROCaM 10-16-2020 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644873)
Your basis is deeply flawed. There is no real evidence that proves your point. Seedlings distance is an anomaly for his age and experience. His isn't average. Neither is mine. We are both above the average, his is just above me. You can't compare me to him like that and say that I don't throw far like him because I hold on to some theory that you think is flawed.

The flawed comparison is the one you made because you are comparing yourself and seedlings to average novices who aren't on here dissecting form and doing drills. Of course you will be throwing farther than those players.

Players such as yourself and seedlings = apples

Players who are casual novices = oranges

You are the one comparing apples and oranges. I am saying you need to compare apples to apples.

Here is the breakdown as if it were an experiment:

Player 1 and Player 2 are both physically capable males between the age of 45-48 with substantially similar experience.

Player 1 uses method A. Player 2 uses method B

Player 2 achieves superior results to Player 1. Since factors such as age, experience, effort, etc. have been held equal, and the differentiating variable is which method each player used, it follows that method B yields superior results to method A.

Yes, you are both above average, which is precisely why comparing the two of you is more appropriate than comparing either of you to other novices. That pool of players has a wide variance in age, experience, time spent throwing, time spent studying form and technique, etc. You and seedlings have more attributes in common, so it is less likely that another variable accounts for the difference in results. In other words, it is easier to isolate the variable that accounts for the difference in results since other variables are substantially equal. "ceteris paribus" if you will.

RoDeO 10-16-2020 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3644906)
The flawed comparison is the one you made because you are comparing yourself and seedlings to average novices who aren't on here dissecting form and doing drills. Of course you will be throwing farther than those players.

Players such as yourself and seedlings = apples

Players who are casual novices = oranges

You are the one comparing apples and oranges. I am saying you need to compare apples to apples.

Here is the breakdown as if it were an experiment:

Player 1 and Player 2 are both physically capable males between the age of 45-48 with substantially similar experience.

Player 1 uses method A. Player 2 uses method B

Player 2 achieves superior results to Player 1. Since factors such as age, experience, effort, etc. have been held equal, and the differentiating variable is which method each player used, it follows that method B yields superior results to method A.

Yes, you are both above average, which is precisely why comparing the two of you is more appropriate than comparing either of you to other novices. That pool of players has a wide variance in age, experience, time spent throwing, time spent studying form and technique, etc. You and seedlings have more attributes in common, so it is less likely that another variable accounts for the difference in results. In other words, it is easier to isolate the variable that accounts for the difference in results since other variables are substantially equal. "ceteris paribus" if you will.

If everything were documented in a perfectly controlled environment this may be true. But, we aren't in that environment and there are too many variables and unknowns and circumstances that make this almost impossible to measure this way.

For example, We dont know the physical abilities and/or limitations that each player had to begin with. We also don't know where each player started from to begin with (what distances each had starting out, dominant arm or not, etc). We also don't know which method each player is using. We thus do not know which method is better or superior. Other variables come into play like weather and elevation, practice location circumstances (throwing flat, downhill, uphill, into wind, downwind etc). On top of all that you have actual distances vs. Internet distances, measurements based on ? Does it allow for total distance or where it first touches ground. If it is for total measurement including skip are both playing surfaces the same? So many variables...

I can only vouch for myself. When I started LHBH it was very hard to get used to the actual handling, grip, guidance of the disc as my left hand is my weak non dominant hand. It took several weeks just to be able to get to where I felt comfortable even holding the disc. It took 6 weeks just to figure out a grip that didn't feel awkward. My putting sucked so bad lefty thst I couldn't even make a putt from inside 10 feet. So, I spent a lot of time over the first 6 weeks just throwing putters to get the feel right. I went through a period where I heard Mcbeth say something about throwing a 1000 putts a day or something. So, I did that every day until I could make a putt from 10-15 feet. I literally threw thousands and thousands of putts just to where I could be comfortable doing something that was completely uncomfortable and make a 10 foot putt left handed! That was time that could of been spent throwing drivers and working on distance. During this period I was throwing tons of putter rounds at the course mostly working on control and watching as much videos and reading forums as I could. The one advantage I had was that from the beginning I knew what the sequence was for throwing with the body. Overall, I think you have to factor this into the equation. On top of that, we have no idea what limitations or circumstances player 2 has in starting out.

Based on this alone I think it's kind of apples and oranges trying to compare player 1 with player 2. It's very possible that if I was using player 2's methods I would be stuck at 275 feet right now. And it's also very possible that if player 2 were using my methods he would only be throwing 275 feet right now. We conceptualize things different in our minds. I honestly believe I'm throwing very similar to a normal players throw right now. I conceptualize it differently but the result is the same as someone else who conceptualized it differently. My throw isn't unorthodox at all. I try to emulate what the top pros do just like everyone else. I just see the how and why differently than most. Where the rubber meets the road is results, plain and simply. I'm happy with my results so far. I've far surpassed my own goals for where I want to be throwing as a lefty. As I've said before, anything now is pure bonus. I've got my body conditioned now to where I can play and throw for several hours everyday with no pain and very little fatigue. I know my mechanics are sound because I can throw with very little effort and do it for hours on end. My arm literally never gets tired or sore even after a 2-3 hour throwing session. If I had incorrect mechanics there's no way I could throw hundreds of throws 300+ feet in a row during a session. The only part of my body that really gets fatigued is my hip from all the bracing. So I know I have a good brace.

I would be interested to know the circumstances of where Seedlings started. I think it's great he's throwing as far as he is. But in that same breath I'm very well pleased with my own distances considering overcoming my awkward off arm issues.

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 11:15 PM

I agree with much of you just said, I just find it ironic with many of the arguments you have made against me. I can spin the revolving door and elephant walk around all day with that form, so I'm clearly not strong arming it.

How tall are you and how would you rate your current health/athletic ability as compared to average?

RoDeO 10-16-2020 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3644937)
I agree with much of you just said, I just find it ironic with many of the arguments you have made against me. I can spin the revolving door and elephant walk around all day with that form, so I'm clearly not strong arming it.

How tall are you and how would you rate your current health/athletic ability as compared to average?

Here's what's irony- I have literally watched more of your drills than anyone else because I like your style and the way you throw. You aren't strong armong the disc. You have pretty solid mechanics and I have tried to emulate various parts of what you do in my own throw. There's just a few areas where I believe you give advice but the advice is how you think you throw when you actually throw different. There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same thing- throw different than how I verbalize and break it down. It's why I like to watch the actual distance parts of throwing in your videoes- where you actually throw it because you do many things very well. But if I try to do what you say sometimes it just flat out don't work for me and makes no sense. In my own mind I believe you could modify some of your drills and be more effective and closer to how you actually throw, nor how you think you throw.

I'm 5'10", 175 LBS. Im not sure if I'm athletic at this point in my life compared to my younger years as I don't have good hips or knees like I had when I was younger but I'm in great shape health wise with my heart and lungs. I throw everyday for a few hours and also find time to get a 10-20 mile bike ride in every night on the stationary bike.

sidewinder22 10-17-2020 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644941)
Here's what's irony- I have literally watched more of your drills than anyone else because I like your style and the way you throw. You aren't strong armong the disc. You have pretty solid mechanics and I have tried to emulate various parts of what you do in my own throw. There's just a few areas where I believe you give advice but the advice is how you think you throw when you actually throw different. There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same thing- throw different than how I verbalize and break it down. It's why I like to watch the actual distance parts of throwing in your videoes- where you actually throw it because you do many things very well. But if I try to do what you say sometimes it just flat out don't work for me and makes no sense. In my own mind I believe you could modify some of your drills and be more effective and closer to how you actually throw, nor how you think you throw.

I'm 5'10", 175 LBS. Im not sure if I'm athletic at this point in my life compared to my younger years as I don't have good hips or knees like I had when I was younger but I'm in great shape health wise with my heart and lungs. I throw everyday for a few hours and also find time to get a 10-20 mile bike ride in every night on the stationary bike.

Coaching in person is hard enough. Online coaching is much harder not being able to give instant feedback/correction, especially if the coach has never seen the student throw. The student is only seeing a small sample or snippet of what is being taught. As I've said in my Best Practices PSA about drills, if one drill isn't working for you, then move on to another, you might be doing it right already, or maybe horribly wrong. I also talk about making your own unique swing, not some cookie cutter approach like you accused me of before. If I was able to see your form before, perhaps I would have shown you the parts you needed to hear.

RoDeO 10-17-2020 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3644957)
Coaching in person is hard enough. Online coaching is much harder not being able to give instant feedback/correction, especially if the coach has never seen the student throw. The student is only seeing a small sample or snippet of what is being taught. As I've said in my Best Practices PSA about drills, if one drill isn't working for you, then move on to another, you might be doing it right already, or maybe horribly wrong. I also talk about making your own unique swing, not some cookie cutter approach like you accused me of before. If I was able to see your form before, perhaps I would have shown you the parts you needed to hear.

Aye. I have never been big on drills in any sport really that break down individual parts. The problem generally is that mechanics require the kinetic chain to develop and flow correctly. It's really hard to mimick real live motions without doing all the parts together.

I actually like quite a lot of your insights and analogies you use in your videos. Certain aspects are really spot on. Don't ever take my critique too negatively. I don't mean to be negative. I do appreciate your dedication and ingenuity. I can get irritated just as much as the next guy if I feel people are cornering me or mocking me.

RandyC 10-17-2020 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644843)
"Far" and "as far" are two different relative concepts.
I didn't say O was throwing "far". I said "as far". Like this morning, I was working on my hyzer flips and getting them out to 330-360. I had one that I really cranked on and it flipped up but then just turned its whole flight and right when it hit the ground it was just starting to want to fight out of the turn. I wished I gor it up higher to get a s flight. I only got that one up 6-8 feet off the ground though. It went 365 feet. I dont know how far it would have gone had I given it more height but maybe another 20-40 feet is fair.

I'm hitting 350 feet pretty regular now when warmed up. I think that's pretty good distance for my age (47) and how long I've been playing (3 1/2 months).

Here is my dad. 70y. Standstill parking a 300ft hole with a midrange. Even thou he does not acknowledge this but I recon he might be one of the furthers throwing 70y out there, he has some flaws in his mechanics, sure, but given his age who cares. Now I would argue that you are in a better shape and apparently need a runup, hyzerflip and a driver to gain 50ft more. So where is the blame if its not your mechanics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJMd...ature=youtu.be

RoDeO 10-17-2020 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644960)
Here is my dad. 70y. Standstill parking a 300ft hole with a midrange. Even thou he does not acknowledge this but I recon he might be one of the furthers throwing 70y out there, he has some flaws in his mechanics, sure, but given his age who cares. Now I would argue that you are in a better shape and apparently need a runup, hyzerflip and a driver to gain 50ft more. So where is the blame if its not your mechanics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJMd...ature=youtu.be

That's awesome. I hope to be throwing when I'm 70 years old too.

I'm done with the pissin contests. I know what I throw, how I throw and it's easy effortless throws. So who cares eh?

RandyC 10-17-2020 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644961)
That's awesome. I hope to be throwing when I'm 70 years old too.

I'm done with the pissin contests. I know what I throw, how I throw and it's easy effortless throws. So who cares eh?

This pissing contest is kept alive by just you in multiple threads and why I am taking your bait is because you offer advice to players who are trying to learn that contradict the proper mechanics of a good throw. So you are trying to intentionally slow their progress, even if you mean good by it but your belifs are false.

RoDeO 10-17-2020 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644962)
This pissing contest is kept alive by just you in multiple threads and why I am taking your bait is because you offer advice to players who are trying to learn that contradict the proper mechanics of a good throw. So you are trying to intentionally slow their progress, even if you mean good by it but your belifs are false.

No one can dispute the video evidence I first offered in this thread. It's actually what Paul Mcbeth himself said. I'm just advocating what he actually said- that twitch or turn of the hips that happens before strong brace. You yourself do it RandyC. Are you going to dispute yourself? Are you going to try to tell me you yourself don't do something I can prove that you do?

RoDeO 10-17-2020 10:04 AM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2020/nbNYpY.gif

Strong brace happens as your lead foot plants solidly and your leg and lead hip come upward. At that precise moment how much hip rotation has occurred? A substantial amount. But let's back up a bit because it's most important to realize the exact monent of when that twitch or slight turn actually begins. If you watch carefully it happens right before your lead foot first touches down or right at the point of first contact before weight shift has occurred.

Randy, are you denying you do this?


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