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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-21-2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3646456)
We could end all this nonsense if you would just take some time to go out on to a field and learn to throw the proper way. I mean the difference in power is so massive that itīs really really hard to argue against it.

Im throwing the proper way. I haven't videoed myself in a while since I slowed everything down but I look like everyone else. The difference is I understand the mechanics and sequence correctly in my head. That gives me an edge moving forwards.

azplaya25 10-21-2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646493)
The video says lateral shift causes rotation. I'm curious- How come I cam jump back and forth, from side to side, even powerfully, and get absolutely no hip rotation from lateral shift alone?


Film yourself jumping back and forth laterally, then watch it in slow mo. Better yet post it here. I bet you see some hip rotation. Feel ainít real

navel 10-21-2020 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646493)
The video says lateral shift causes rotation. I'm curious- How come I cam jump back and forth, from side to side, even powerfully, and get absolutely no hip rotation from lateral shift alone?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please:

Because when the front heel goes down to brace, and the back heel goes up to deweight, the hips are automatically turned just enough to spin around the center of gravity. They are never supposed to be turned forcefully.

When a correct throw is being performed:
The brace will stop the front hip in place and even push back just a an inch or two. And the back hip will start turning around the center. It's a spring! Everything else will follow effortlessly.
This needs to happen after brace, or else there will be no spring effect. If you turn your hips forcefully before brace it translates to:
*Trying to jump on a trampoline by pushing the leg straight forcefully before you have even landed from your previous jump
*Trying to shoot an arrow on a bow by drawing it back and then push it forward as fast as you can.
*Trying to make a push up by rotating your forearms and upper arms around your elbows and shoulders. This even sound confusing typing it out.


For a beginner it may seem like if you just try to forcefully magnify how your body reacts to an athletic skill. Then it will be more powerful.
What really is powerful is using forces to your advantage. It's much more powerful to let the hips brace and spin around the short lever that is being created if you travel forward and brace hard with just a little offset.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646506)
Im throwing the proper way. I haven't videoed myself in a while since I slowed everything down but I look like everyone else. The difference is I understand the mechanics and sequence correctly in my head. That gives me an edge moving forwards.

So you can successfully generate a ground up kinetic chain balanced on your lead leg now? Or not? I think that is probably one surefire way to ensure you have moved on from the deliberate rotation paradigm.

RandyC 10-21-2020 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646498)
Im curious why your shoulders start rotating open just before your hips in the video. If your hip is turning your upper body how is this possible?

You really need an anatomy lesson. I am guessing you are watching my rear shoulder going from external to internal rotation as my hand moves. That is not a shoulder turn. My collarbone moves in sync with my hip, frame by frame.

RandyC 10-21-2020 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3646507)
Film yourself jumping back and forth laterally, then watch it in slow mo. Better yet post it here. I bet you see some hip rotation. Feel ainít real

Itīs possible you just have keep your legs straight and stiff. Tip your upper body back and forth, dunno why anyone would do that.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3646507)
Film yourself jumping back and forth laterally, then watch it in slow mo. Better yet post it here. I bet you see some hip rotation. Feel ainít real

https://youtu.be/TReQAwxCr7M

I was trying really hard to stop my lateral shift and get that rotation. Never happened. My next video will be me doing the same but trying to rotate somehow once I land on the front leg.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646569)
https://youtu.be/TReQAwxCr7M

I was trying really hard to stop my lateral shift and get that rotation. Never happened. My next video will be me doing the same but trying to rotate somehow once I land on the front leg.

You are falling over the top, not bracing correctly. Brace more like a hockey stop on ice skates, then extend the lead knee.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3646584)
You are falling over the top, not bracing correctly. Brace more like a hockey stop on ice skates, then extend the lead knee.

You are also going to have to load your shoulders in order to really feel the transfer of lateral momentum into the uncorking rotation in the hit.

bsammons 10-21-2020 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocHucker (Post 3646474)
I've read this before, about the hips being a "counterweight", but it makes no sense to me. I'm not saying that it's wrong, I'm just saying that I can't wrap my head around it. My mind works best in terms of physics / free body diagram terms, and it sounds like you might have a similar background bsammons, so maybe you can help me navigate the following thoughts:

A) In order to counterweight a rotation, a mass must be offset from the axis of that rotation.
B) The spine is more or less the axis of rotation for a disc golf backhand drive.
C) The center of mass of the hips is more or less in line with the spine.

Taking A, B, and C together, I can't see how a mass (the hips) that lies on an axis of rotation (the spine) can counterweight that rotation. What am I misunderstanding here?

Itís tricky for sure, so maybe I can shed some light - also none of this is meant in trying to make your thoughts sound ridiculous, just sharing understanding that Iíve developed over the years of playing.

To answer the other postís question, that would be the moment before release of a backhand drive, disc being thrown directly at the camera (more or less)

Itís really easy to feel the ďcounterweightĒ feel when trying to pull a post out of the ground on one leg, like I had done in the photo.

The spine cannot be the center of rotation because it is not whatís grounded. The right foot, whether it be the heel or ball of the foot, creates the center of rotation. So that accounts for B and somewhat C.
With the right leg, which Iíll refer to as the brace from here on, being the center of rotation, then that puts the right arm on one side of the COR and the spine/trail leg/hip/head/rest of the body on the other side. I want to reiterate-the spine can not be the center of rotation in order to maximize efficiency. Center of rotation comes from the ground up, which HAS to be the heel, to the knee, to the right femur entering the pelvis. Thatís the center of rotation.

So with knowledge of momentum and physics which you have, then you can deduce from there:
1. In order to be balanced, equal and opposite forces must be in place.
2. The weight of the hip and direction of the braceís force (up and to the left in the photo I posted) move one side to the left
3. In order to stay balanced, the only force that can counter the trail sideís weight would be...
The arm, swung by the lat. That gives an incredible amount of counterweight force to the only thing on the opposite side of the brace, the arm. So in order to stay balanced, the arm swings (equal and opposite) and launches the disc with extraordinary force, and relative ease.

Maybe that answered your question? I hope so haha

RoDeO 10-21-2020 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3646584)
You are falling over the top, not bracing correctly. Brace more like a hockey stop on ice skates, then extend the lead knee.

I tried that, felt more balanced but still 0% rotation.

bsammons 10-21-2020 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646628)
I tried that, felt more balanced but still 0% rotation.

The spine isnít the center of rotation. The lead leg and brace is. Hip rotation isnít a goal, itís a product of proper bracing. Take a look at the picture I posted last night and how I described it a few minutes ago and it makes a lot of sense as to where the power comes from.

sidewinder22 10-21-2020 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646569)
https://youtu.be/TReQAwxCr7M

I was trying really hard to stop my lateral shift and get that rotation. Never happened. My next video will be me doing the same but trying to rotate somehow once I land on the front leg.

You aren't shifting in dynamic balance ground up. You are tipping over top down.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-21-2020/b561PA.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-30-2017/I9OAbj.gif

scooby snack 10-21-2020 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navel (Post 3646514)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong please:

Because when the front heel goes down to brace, and the back heel goes up to deweight, the hips are automatically turned just enough to spin around the center of gravity. They are never supposed to be turned forcefully.

When a correct throw is being performed:
The brace will stop the front hip in place and even push back just a an inch or two. And the back hip will start turning around the center. It's a spring! Everything else will follow effortlessly.
This needs to happen after brace, or else there will be no spring effect. If you turn your hips forcefully before brace it translates to:
*Trying to jump on a trampoline by pushing the leg straight forcefully before you have even landed from your previous jump
*Trying to shoot an arrow on a bow by drawing it back and then push it forward as fast as you can.
*Trying to make a push up by rotating your forearms and upper arms around your elbows and shoulders. This even sound confusing typing it out.


For a beginner it may seem like if you just try to forcefully magnify how your body reacts to an athletic skill. Then it will be more powerful.
What really is powerful is using forces to your advantage. It's much more powerful to let the hips brace and spin around the short lever that is being created if you travel forward and brace hard with just a little offset.

Youíre not wrong, just adding my .02

Hips will automatically align to stance. Planting in a staggered stance causes the hips to re-align AS the weight shifts from the rear leg to the plant leg, and also when the rear foot comes off the ground.

Rodeo sees hip alignment, and tries to convince everyone that rotation of the hips is where power is developed.

Power from the hips comes from the hips firing laterally toward the target into the brace. Then rotation occurs in the hips and on the heel of the plant foot, to relieve stress on the shoulder, knee, and back.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646628)
I tried that, felt more balanced but still 0% rotation.

Load your shoulders so there is something you can unwind with this momentum.

scooby snack 10-21-2020 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646569)
https://youtu.be/TReQAwxCr7M

I was trying really hard to stop my lateral shift and get that rotation. Never happened. My next video will be me doing the same but trying to rotate somehow once I land on the front leg.

I thought you were supposed to be a baseball coach? You canít even perform a simple athletic drill.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646634)
You aren't shifting in dynamic balance ground up. You are tipping over top down.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-21-2020/b561PA.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-30-2017/I9OAbj.gif

How come the guy in the top video isn't spinning around shifting side to side if lateral shifting is supposed to cause rotation?

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646643)
How come the guy in the top video isn't spinning around shifting side to side if lateral shifting is supposed to cause rotation?

It can only cause rotation if there is a lever ready to receive the momentum. Hockey players don't just begin spinning when they stop, do they? No one here has said that rotation magically happens from a lateral shift. People are saying that a lateral shift is the most powerful way to generate momentum to then transfer further up the kinetic chain of a disc swing.

sidewinder22 10-21-2020 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646643)
How come the guy in the top video isn't spinning around shifting side to side if lateral shifting is supposed to cause rotation?

Look at his rear knee turning in, indicating hip turn.

seedlings 10-21-2020 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646651)
Look at his rear knee turning in, indicating hip turn.

What you did there. I saw it.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooby snack (Post 3646642)
I thought you were supposed to be a baseball coach? You canít even perform a simple athletic drill.

I was focusing primarily on driving all my weight into the hip to get this rotation people keep talking about. I wasn't focused on anything else. I was doing it to prove that just moving laterally doesn't cause rotation at all no matter how hard you force your weight laterally your hips will not rotate unless you do something to initiate that turn. Paul Mcbeth talks about that in the video I posted to open the discission with but people don't believe it. He is literally talking about that twitch- that turn that happens before you come into brace.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3646651)
Look at his rear knee turning in, indicating hip turn.

So you admit his hip is starting to turn?

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646692)
So you admit his hip is starting to turn?

The unawareness required to self-own yourself this hard is just baffling to me.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3646695)
The unawareness required to self-own yourself this hard is just baffling to me.

Stay with me a little longer because I am trying a different approach.

rorlick 10-21-2020 01:43 PM

contradicting yourself?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646692)
How come the guy in the top video isn't spinning around shifting side to side if lateral shifting is supposed to cause rotation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646692)
So you admit his hip is starting to turn?


RoDeO 10-21-2020 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rorlick (Post 3646709)
contradicting yourself?

No, trying to get someone to see what I'm seeing. Sometimes a different approach works. Stay with me.

scooby snack 10-21-2020 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646688)
I was focusing primarily on driving all my weight into the hip to get this rotation people keep talking about. I wasn't focused on anything else. I was doing it to prove that just moving laterally doesn't cause rotation at all no matter how hard you force your weight laterally your hips will not rotate unless you do something to initiate that turn.

Rotation is a by product of throwing. Youíre not throwing anything in that drill. Why would you think your hips are supposed to rotate??

No one said moving your hips laterally causes hip rotation. Youíre the one trying to convince everyone here that hip rotation is where power comes from.

For a supposed baseball coach, you have no grasp of drills and their purpose. Youíre also incapable of properly coaching. No coach would ever give advice that hinders progress or could result in injury, as you have.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooby snack (Post 3646738)
Rotation is a by product of throwing. Youíre not throwing anything in that drill. Why would you think your hips are supposed to rotate??

No one said moving your hips laterally causes hip rotation. Youíre the one trying to convince everyone here that hip rotation is where power comes from.

For a supposed baseball coach, you have no grasp of drills and their purpose. Youíre also incapable of properly coaching. No coach would ever give advice that hinders progress or could result in injury, as you have.

You guys won't give me a chance to explain. I was doing your drills as a way to show the folly of them.

I know there must be a lateral shift. But it must combine with another critical element- that of hip rotation initiation in order to do it properly. Combining the lateral side to side with hip rotation initiation allows the hips to turn powerfully.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646744)
You guys won't give me a chance to explain. I was doing your drills as a way to show the folly of them.

I know there must be a lateral shift. But it must combine with another critical element- that of hip rotation initiation in order to do it properly. Combining the lateral side to side with hip rotation initiation allows the hips to turn powerfully.

There are only two explanations for this thread continuing.

1.) You are still wrong, fundamentally, about the kinetic chain. Rotation of the hips before the brace is not part of the chain, period.

2.) You are trying to make a point that is beyond pedantic, and has already been addressed numerous times anyways.

I just don't get it.

rhatton1 10-21-2020 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646569)
https://youtu.be/TReQAwxCr7M

I was trying really hard to stop my lateral shift and get that rotation. Never happened. My next video will be me doing the same but trying to rotate somehow once I land on the front leg.

Serious question, I'm not trying to be a D*ck here but do you have an old injury on your left side? This looks scarily unbalanced and as though you're trying to protect a knee from further injury?

As Sidewinder notes you are tipping over the top, you're not doing this in any kind of athletic motion.

Try jumping side to side quickly with your knees hanging under your body, basically just use the lower legs to bounce, not upper legs, immediate return back and forth. Not waiting and trying to balance on the other leg just bouncing back and forth.

Now stagger your legs slightly so your left toes are in line with your right heel. keep bouncing, keep just using your lower legs. If you do it a lot and start to pay attention to the feel you should feel the rear hip coming in (rotating) as you bounce back off the front foot.

A side benefit of this it will force your body into better balance (in all your videos your upper body is swinging out of control) , it will also hopefully help you start to feel some other stuff. Maybe.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3646751)
There are only two explanations for this thread continuing.

1.) You are still wrong, fundamentally, about the kinetic chain. Rotation of the hips before the brace is not part of the chain, period.

2.) You are trying to make a point that is beyond pedantic, and has already been addressed numerous times anyways.

I just don't get it.

I stopped the GIF at the moment she comes into brace. At that point, what direction are her hips?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-21-2020/_qOZTN.gif

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646825)
I stopped the GIF at the moment she comes into brace. At that point, what direction are her hips?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-21-2020/_qOZTN.gif

The powerful hip rotation is happening after the brace and has nothing to do with initiating rotation from the rear hip socket. She is extending her knee into the brace, that is what you see.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3646827)
The powerful hip rotation is happening after the brace and has nothing to do with initiating rotation from the rear hip socket. She is extending her knee into the brace, that is what you see.

Look at how her rear foot is entirely de-weighted before she extends the front knee.

I get it, you can see this wrong and believe it is something its not. I see that clear as day, but she is absolutely NOT 'spinning' into the brace. She is much, much closer to doing the opposite of what you are describing than you realize.

RoDeO 10-21-2020 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhatton1 (Post 3646772)
Serious question, I'm not trying to be a D*ck here but do you have an old injury on your left side? This looks scarily unbalanced and as though you're trying to protect a knee from further injury?

As Sidewinder notes you are tipping over the top, you're not doing this in any kind of athletic motion.

Try jumping side to side quickly with your knees hanging under your body, basically just use the lower legs to bounce, not upper legs, immediate return back and forth. Not waiting and trying to balance on the other leg just bouncing back and forth.

Now stagger your legs slightly so your left toes are in line with your right heel. keep bouncing, keep just using your lower legs. If you do it a lot and start to pay attention to the feel you should feel the rear hip coming in (rotating) as you bounce back off the front foot.

A side benefit of this it will force your body into better balance (in all your videos your upper body is swinging out of control) , it will also hopefully help you start to feel some other stuff. Maybe.

Tried it, didn't work. One simply can't jump back and forth without doing something else to initiate hip rotation.

RowingBoats 10-21-2020 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646831)
Tried it, didn't work. One simply can't jump back and forth without doing something else to initiate hip rotation.

What is this something else you are getting at then? What initiates hip rotation for you? My guess is that you will say you push off the back leg to shove your rear hip forward. Is this incorrect?

SaROCaM 10-21-2020 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646825)
I stopped the GIF at the moment she comes into brace. At that point, what direction are her hips?

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-21-2020/_qOZTN.gif

The GIF goes past the moment of brace to include front leg extension.

Here is a more accurate moment of brace, at the moment the heel hits the ground:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...ictureid=39079

You seem to have made up a term you call "strong brace" in order to include more of the motion that happens after brace. Bracing takes place while the swinging takes place, so in order to look at the swing, one must start at the beginning of brace.

This is why I posted the K-Vest analysis earlier. It more objectively measures the moment of heel strike. Your GIF seems to have been created with an agenda in mind, rather than to find when the actual brace happens.

oldmandiscer 10-21-2020 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3646833)
What is this something else you are getting at then? What initiates hip rotation for you? My guess is that you will say you push off the back leg to shove your rear hip forward. Is this incorrect?

The ground initiates the force. It's almost simultaneous but you have to use the ground to move so it has to come from the feet to move the hips. Duh?

RoDeO 10-21-2020 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3646834)
The GIF goes past the moment of brace to include front leg extension.

Here is a more accurate moment of brace, at the moment the heel hits the ground:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...ictureid=39079

You seem to have made up a term you call "strong brace" in order to include more of the motion that happens after brace. Bracing takes place while the swinging takes place, so in order to look at the swing, one must start at the beginning of brace.

This is why I posted the K-Vest analysis earlier. It more objectively measures the moment of heel strike. Your GIF seems to have been created with an agenda in mind, rather than to find when the actual brace happens.

Your stoppage doesn't show strong brace. I call it "strong brace" because that is the moment when the weight has fully shifted and you have max pressure under your foot. In your stopped point her front foot isn't even down all the way yet. Her front foot is on the inside edge. In mine it stops where you can see the whole foot firmly flat on the ground.

SaROCaM 10-21-2020 06:20 PM

Here's one way to feel rotation from leg extension:

Stand with feet about shoulder width apart and pointed forward, knees and hips slightly flexed/bent, torso centered. Basically a quarter- to half-squat, athletic position. Keeping weight centered, extend one leg while keeping the other leg bent in the same manner as the starting position. Due to the extension of the leg, the hips will rotate in that direction. Remember to keep weight centered; one can prevent rotation but must then tip in the direction of the flexed leg.

SaROCaM 10-21-2020 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3646839)
Your stoppage doesn't show strong brace. I call it "strong brace" because that is the moment when the weight has fully shifted and you have max pressure under your foot. In your stopped point her front foot isn't even down all the way yet. Her front foot is on the inside edge. In mine it stops where you can see the whole foot firmly flat on the ground.

Do you need the whole foot completely flat on the ground to make an athletic move? When a running back cuts and pushes off the ground to change direction, does their whole foot have to be firmly flat on the ground? When a skier makes a quick turn, do they have to have the entire ski flat on the snow surface? When a hockey player or ice skater makes a move, do they have to have the entire blade flat on the ice?

Are we not talking about dynamic movement?


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