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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-06-2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3640521)
Should have probably worded that better not lack of distance but knowledge. Yes hips do rotate but do you consciously rotate them is a different animal. Just a thought process here if you were on a snowboard the way you are describing the throw and the hip action would essentially be the start of a 360. Spinning the rear hip would send your left side around the front side and itīs not very efficent way to throw. I imagine if I were to throw whilst on a snowboard it would push the nose of the board down and lift the rear end.

It's hard to describe but it's definitely not the mentality of intentionally trying to just rotate the hips. Like I don't consciously think about rotation or amount of rotation, etc. It is a conscious effort though to come into the plant position withthat loaded up feeling in the hips and torso. You have to be able yo feel the rotation in the hips and especially the torso and backside of the shoulder yo be able to throw correctly. The "one leg drill" (which I believe should be the "two leg drill) actually helps to promote the correct initial hip rotation.

sidewinder22 10-06-2020 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640534)
It's hard to describe but it's definitely not the mentality of intentionally trying to just rotate the hips. Like I don't consciously think about rotation or amount of rotation, etc. It is a conscious effort though to come into the plant position withthat loaded up feeling in the hips and torso. You have to be able yo feel the rotation in the hips and especially the torso and backside of the shoulder yo be able to throw correctly. The "one leg drill" (which I believe should be the "two leg drill) actually helps to promote the correct initial hip rotation.

Wouldn't Two Leg Drill just be a normal golf or batting stance starting with weight pressure distribution about equal 50/50, and shifting back to 20/80 or more? Two Leg Drill would imply equality on both legs I would think.

I believe it's called One Leg Drill because the majority of weight and rotational axis remains on front leg. Weight pressure might get to 80/20, but certainly not shifting a majority of weight back or the rotational axis. Some people also call it the Flamingo Drill, maybe the 80/20 Drill would be better for the pedants.

RoDeO 10-06-2020 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640563)
Wouldn't Two Leg Drill just be a normal golf or batting stance starting with weight pressure distribution about equal 50/50, and shifting back to 20/80 or more? Two Leg Drill would imply equality on both legs I would think.

I believe it's called One Leg Drill because the majority of weight and rotational axis remains on front leg. Weight pressure might get to 80/20, but certainly not shifting a majority of weight back or the rotational axis. Some people also call it the Flamingo Drill, maybe the 80/20 Drill would be better for the pedants.

I just watched your video again, the part where you throw at the beginning and as the backswing happens your weight shifts to the rear foot then at reachback you transition forward with that slight turn of the hips and then your weight shifts to the front leg. It had a lot of people confused because they are thinking you try to balance all your weight on the front leg all the time during the drill. But that isn't good mechanics. There has to be a weight shift and thus you have to use "two" legs.

RowingBoats 10-06-2020 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640582)
I just watched your video again, the part where you throw at the beginning and as the backswing happens your weight shifts to the rear foot then at reachback you transition forward with that slight turn of the hips and then your weight shifts to the front leg. It had a lot of people confused because they are thinking you try to balance all your weight on the front leg all the time during the drill. But that isn't good mechanics. There has to be a weight shift and thus you have to use "two" legs.

This is just not correct. I have great balance, and its still hard for me, but I can absolutely stand on one leg and generate ground up power into my swing.

RoDeO 10-06-2020 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3640593)
This is just not correct. I have great balance, and its still hard for me, but I can absolutely stand on one leg and generate ground up power into my swing.

Maybe a little but I would bet it's mostly arm.

seedlings 10-06-2020 04:16 PM

For a bystander reading this thread, if it says ‘drill’ then it’s only a small part of the whole. Football players high-step through tires, which is ridiculous without tires on field during games. By definition a drill is not a complete and fully formed technique.

__________ (fill in the blank) drill is not the gold standard backhand stroke for use on the course. It’s... a... drill.

RoDeO 10-06-2020 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3640611)
For a bystander reading this thread, if it says Ďdrillí then itís only a small part of the whole. Football players high-step through tires, which is ridiculous without tires on field during games. By definition a drill is not a complete and fully formed technique.

__________ (fill in the blank) drill is not the gold standard backhand stroke for use on the course. Itís... a... drill.

I agree. And in Sidewinders one leg drill, his practice throws at the beginning has him using both legs. Thus it's really a two leg drill, or should be. There is no benefit to balancing on one leg and throwing from it, that would reinforce and teach all arm mechanics.

RowingBoats 10-06-2020 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640615)
I agree. And in Sidewinders one leg drill, his practice throws at the beginning has him using both legs. Thus it's really a two leg drill, or should be. There is no benefit to balancing on one leg and throwing from it, that would reinforce and teach all arm mechanics.

You are 100% just straight up wrong. And honestly, this exact moment of complete wrongness might be the crux of your entire saga of 'spin' that I have read about.

RoDeO 10-06-2020 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3640617)
You are 100% just straight up wrong. And honestly, this exact moment of complete wrongness might be the crux of your entire saga of 'spin' that I have read about.

Tell me, how do you initiate hip and torso rotation while balancing only on your front leg? I cant remember who it was but they showed a video and they were all arm with their arm draging their shoulders and hips around from the momentum.

seedlings 10-06-2020 06:49 PM

The hip rotation IS the shifting of weight to the front leg.

Edit: on full throws, not up shots

RoDeO 10-06-2020 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedlings (Post 3640684)
The hip rotation IS the shifting of weight to the front leg.

Edit: on full throws, not up shots

The hip rotation works in conjunction with the weight shift. I can shift side to side and get absolutely no hip rotation. The hips can rotate one of two ways- they can be dragged through and turned by strong arming or they can be initiated by the legs just before front foot plant which also triggers torso and shoulder rotation which whips the disc through via the arm lever.

sidewinder22 10-06-2020 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640704)
I can shift side to side and get absolutely no hip rotation.

This is physically impossible, especially if you land toe to heel, or make a backswing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640704)
The hips can rotate one of two ways- they can be dragged through and turned by strong arming or they can be initiated by the legs just before front foot plant which also triggers torso and shoulder rotation which whips the disc through via the arm lever.

Or you can remain planted and rotate them on One Leg with the arm following along for the ride.

Strong Arming on One Leg will get you maybe 50'.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640767)
This is physically impossible, especially if you land toe to heel, or make a backswing.


Or you can remain planted and rotate them on One Leg with the arm following along for the ride.

Strong Arming on One Leg will get you maybe 50'.

I just videoed myself and just practiced backswing and pull through with no rotation emphasis and guess what? Absolutely no hip rotation. So, yes, it is possible
I can show you the video if you want.
The problem with standing solely on the front leg and trying to throw from it is that you end up using your momentum of the arm and disc to rotate from the top down which drags the hips through last. That is what happens when you strong arm.
I look at players like Paige Pierce who, because of their small frame, must use legs and hips to generate power. This video is one of my favorites because it shows very clearly how and when her hips begin to rotate. Watch precisely at the 1:05 mark. At this moment her hips begin to rotate but you can tell that her weight hasn't fully come into brace yet because the hip isn't rising upwards just yet. As brace happens and her hip comes up the rotation continues on up in that kinetic chain. She's literally unwinding from her legs upwards into her shoulders. The key here is that the hips begin to rotate during the weight transition from rear to front leg. We know the brace moment because the front hip comes upwards as her weight comes forward into the brace.

https://youtu.be/Nf39x7vDbAg

RandyC 10-07-2020 01:45 AM

So... Last time I posted this your analysis was that this is strong arming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyR...ature=youtu.be

Please watch it again and where your focus should be is my front knee, front hip and rear leg countering the swing. You can also take note how the leg "pumps/whips" my lower arm open. and IF I was strong arming I would never get to that finish position due to muscle tension preventing me swinging fluidly thru.

sidewinder22 10-07-2020 04:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640775)
I just videoed myself and just practiced backswing and pull through with no rotation emphasis and guess what? Absolutely no hip rotation. So, yes, it is possible
I can show you the video if you want.
The problem with standing solely on the front leg and trying to throw from it is that you end up using your momentum of the arm and disc to rotate from the top down which drags the hips through last. That is what happens when you strong arm.

This is not true. Put some accelerometers on and then show me the real data instead of your perception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640775)
As brace happens and her hip comes up the rotation continues on up in that kinetic chain. She's literally unwinding from her legs upwards into her shoulders. The key here is that the hips begin to rotate during the weight transition from rear to front leg. We know the brace moment because the front hip comes upwards as her weight comes forward into the brace.

Almost sounds like Feldberg's Hip to Sky Drill that you say is terrible. Looks like his hips rotated making that lateral shift just like Paige.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1602058803
https://media.giphy.com/media/iIeo5E...tK15/giphy.gif

RoDeO 10-07-2020 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3640793)
So... Last time I posted this your analysis was that this is strong arming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyR...ature=youtu.be

Please watch it again and where your focus should be is my front knee, front hip and rear leg countering the swing. You can also take note how the leg "pumps/whips" my lower arm open. and IF I was strong arming I would never get to that finish position due to muscle tension preventing me swinging fluidly thru.

Yeah, it's strong arming. Your shoulders are ahead of your hips in rotation. Strongarming at its finest.

ru4por 10-07-2020 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640448)
Not sure what you mean by the noob trap. I don't see myself in a trap. I feel like the number 1 thing right now for more distance in myself is conditioning muscles to fire better and faster. The mechanic tweaks will add a little bit more. Understanding how the disc is propelled is 90% of the mystery. I feel I know that. Now, getting consistency and building upon that foundation is all that's left.

The noob trap is not understanding the quest. Learning how to throw, with both distance and accuracy, and then translating what you learn into competition, is a journey. One that has changes. One that will provide you with a multitude of discoveries....some helpful, some setbacks, most just plateaus to be used as building blocks. Noobs embrace a discovery and fail to understand the importance of the foundation and it generally stalls their progress. Many of us have really felt we figured it out.

"A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that mistake again.But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him how to avoid the mistake altogether."

Roy H. Williams

SaROCaM 10-07-2020 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640448)
Understanding how the disc is propelled is 90% of the mystery. I feel I know that.

The feel ain't real.

If you don't understand how Feldberg's advice fits in, you have an incomplete understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640448)
Not sure what you mean by the noob trap. I don't see myself in a trap.

That's the thing about traps...if you don't heed the warnings you won't realize you are in one until it's too late.

azplaya25 10-07-2020 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3640793)
So... Last time I posted this your analysis was that this is strong arming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyR...ature=youtu.be

Please watch it again and where your focus should be is my front knee, front hip and rear leg countering the swing. You can also take note how the leg "pumps/whips" my lower arm open. and IF I was strong arming I would never get to that finish position due to muscle tension preventing me swinging fluidly thru.

This is so solid ...hope you donít mind but I slowed this down and made it into a gif. Really been working on feeling the slingshot/trebuchet from the one leg and you execute it perfectly.

https://imgflip.com/gif/4hnk0x

RoDeO 10-07-2020 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640809)
This is not true. Put some accelerometers on and then show me the real data instead of your perception.


Almost sounds like Feldberg's Hip to Sky Drill that you say is terrible. Looks like his hips rotated making that lateral shift just like Paige.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...1&d=1602058803
https://media.giphy.com/media/iIeo5E...tK15/giphy.gif

That's a good drill Paige is doing but that's just laterally shifting back and forth. It's not what actually happens when she throws. As she shifts laterally her hips are already rotating. The lead hip coming up signifies strong brace or full weight shift. If we freeze it precisely at that moment her hips are already substantially open thus proving that shift into strong brace isnt what initiates hip rotation.
https://youtu.be/ZG3YXTE2Dx0

azplaya25 10-07-2020 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640871)
Yeah, it's strong arming. Your shoulders are ahead of your hips in rotation. Strongarming at its finest.


Lol are you serious with this? Guy has a form thread where heís throwing 450. You canít strong arm and throw 450. His hips lead everything.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3640907)
The feel ain't real.

If you don't understand how Feldberg's advice fits in, you have an incomplete understanding.



That's the thing about traps...if you don't heed the warnings you won't realize you are in one until it's too late.

So I was out throwing this morning. Pretty cold out, had my jacket on (31 degrees) and settled on just working on gentle smooth throws, trying to keep the disc on a smooth line. I was easily getting them out past 300 feet. Is that the trap you are speaking of?

RoDeO 10-07-2020 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3640921)
Lol are you serious with this? Guy has a form thread where heís throwing 450. You canít strong arm and throw 450. His hips lead everything.

Maybe so, I'm not seeing that video or evidence, I'm going off what I see in his one leg drill with that particular throw.

SaROCaM 10-07-2020 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640922)
So I was out throwing this morning. Pretty cold out, had my jacket on (31 degrees) and settled on just working on gentle smooth throws, trying to keep the disc on a smooth line. I was easily getting them out past 300 feet. Is that the trap you are speaking of?

Are you saying you aren't sure whether or not you are in a trap? Not sure what the point of that story is. Throwing past 300 feet while wearing a jacket in 31 degree weather sounds like what can be seen at local dubs on a typical morning in October-April. Lots of people do that. Lots of people who do that also have form issues.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3640931)
Are you saying you aren't sure whether or not you are in a trap? Not sure what the point of that story is. Throwing past 300 feet while wearing a jacket in 31 degree weather sounds like what can be seen at local dubs on a typical morning in October-April. Lots of people do that. Lots of people who do that also have form issues.

So, your answer will always be along the lines of- it's Rodeo throwing, he's knew, he's gonna have all kinds of form issues, plus he just doesnt understand. Gotcha.

SaROCaM 10-07-2020 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640943)
So, your answer will always be along the lines of- it's Rodeo throwing, he's knew, he's gonna have all kinds of form issues, plus he just doesnt understand. Gotcha.

Don't take it personally. It's not you being new. The thing is, based on what you have shared, you do have form issues and also don't quite understand the mechanics of throwing (and the concepts of power generation that translate from sport to sport.) You are doing some things right but also doing some things wrong, in terms of both form and understanding.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3640955)
Don't take it personally. It's not you being new. The thing is, based on what you have shared, you do have form issues and also don't quite understand the mechanics of throwing (and the concepts of power generation that translate from sport to sport.) You are doing some things right but also doing some things wrong, in terms of both form and understanding.

There's no doubt that I have some form issues. I think everyone has form issues in one degree or another. I tend to think of being refined. How refined is someone? There's both mental and physical refinement- how one sees the mechanics, how it is supposed to work in their mind, and then the physical refinement of translating that into results. I honestly believe that mentally I'm quite refined in how the shot needs to work, where the power comes from, etc. Translating that physically is going to take time to get the smoothness and consistency along with the correct muscle power.

RandyC 10-07-2020 01:42 PM

https://i.imgur.com/IGghkQb.gif

azplaya25 10-07-2020 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3641013)


Thanks dude! Perfect. Iíve gone back to throwing a hammer lately and Iím really starting to feel that leveraging of the disc like you are here. At some point Iíll be able to bring the rest of it together, complete with the lat pull and swim move like your doing here. Baby steps

RandyC 10-07-2020 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azplaya25 (Post 3641016)
Thanks dude! Perfect. Iíve gone back to throwing a hammer lately and Iím really starting to feel that leveraging of the disc like you are here. At some point Iíll be able to bring the rest of it together, complete with the lat pull and swim move like your doing here. Baby steps

That swim move is kinda weird because I am not doing it. My focus there is pretty much just catching the swing with my quads, glutes and not fall down.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3641013)

I would just bet that the torso rotation sequence is different in this throw than your x step.

RandyC 10-07-2020 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641027)
I would just bet that the torso rotation sequence is different in this throw than your x step.

What is a torso rotation sequence?

sidewinder22 10-07-2020 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640918)
That's a good drill Paige is doing but that's just laterally shifting back and forth. It's not what actually happens when she throws. As she shifts laterally her hips are already rotating.

You are contradicting yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640918)
The lead hip coming up signifies strong brace or full weight shift. If we freeze it precisely at that moment her hips are already substantially open thus proving that shift into strong brace isnt what initiates hip rotation.

I agree that bracing doesn't initiate hip rotation. Making the lateral move off the rear foot initiates hip rotation.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3641046)
What is a torso rotation sequence?

For example, in your one leg throw the sequence is shoulders rotate first, then torso, then hips. I would bet it's the opposite in your x step throw which would be hips turn, then torso, then shoulders.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3641048)
You are contradicting yourself.


I agree that bracing doesn't initiate hip rotation. Making the lateral move off the rear foot initiates hip rotation.

Yes, that lateral shift also creates turn. That's what I'm saying that rotation begins before front foot plant.

RandyC 10-07-2020 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641071)
For example, in your one leg throw the sequence is shoulders rotate first, then torso, then hips. I would bet it's the opposite in your x step throw which would be hips turn, then torso, then shoulders.

I know that shoulders can internally and externally rotate, you can try to twist your torso but I wouldnt call it rotation. So you are saying I am externally rotating my shoulder which then twists my torso and then my hips follow. Just to clarify?

HyzerUniBomber 10-07-2020 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641074)
Yes, that lateral shift also creates turn. That's what I'm saying that rotation begins before front foot plant.

It does not in ANY effective way start before the plant.

The act of planting the brace foot, weighting it, engages the femur in the lead hip - which causes your hips to open.





16s in... it shows everything that you need to know. Hips back in the backswing, toe down, heel down, weighting opens the hips.

CAN you throw by spinning your hips open? Sure can. It will cause you to yank discs all over the place and generate substantially less power than putting your momentum right down the trajectory line - getting into a good stacked posture and just letting physics do all of the work.

Having some good results in what you consider is a good shot is fine, but as Tiger said, "How bad is your bad?" That's a really important concept in golf. Everybody's good is good, but how bad is your bad? Ask yourself why you're holding onto this? I'm guessing you're afraid to commit to a swing change that is going to make you think you'll lose power or accuracy or both.

If you don't want to retool your swing, that's fine - and you're in good company. There's many players that will gladly just throw with their form and call it a day. This group has worked tirelessly to teach and learn from the best golf, baseball, disc golf athletes in the world.

You're not preaching anything new. We've seen this play a number of times... many number of times, but the proof is always in the pudding.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HyzerUniBomber (Post 3641098)
It does not in ANY effective way start before the plant.

The act of planting the brace foot, weighting it, engages the femur in the lead hip - which causes your hips to open.





16s in... it shows everything that you need to know. Hips back in the backswing, toe down, heel down, weighting opens the hips.

CAN you throw by spinning your hips open? Sure can. It will cause you to yank discs all over the place and generate substantially less power than putting your momentum right down the trajectory line - getting into a good stacked posture and just letting physics do all of the work.

Having some good results in what you consider is a good shot is fine, but as Tiger said, "How bad is your bad?" That's a really important concept in golf. Everybody's good is good, but how bad is your bad? Ask yourself why you're holding onto this? I'm guessing you're afraid to commit to a swing change that is going to make you think you'll lose power or accuracy or both.

If you don't want to retool your swing, that's fine - and you're in good company. There's many players that will gladly just throw with their form and call it a day. This group has worked tirelessly to teach and learn from the best golf, baseball, disc golf athletes in the world.

You're not preaching anything new. We've seen this play a number of times... many number of times, but the proof is always in the pudding.

The plant certainly helps but the initial rotation begins before the brace.

RoDeO 10-07-2020 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3641095)
I know that shoulders can internally and externally rotate, you can try to twist your torso but I wouldnt call it rotation. So you are saying I am externally rotating my shoulder which then twists my torso and then my hips follow. Just to clarify?

In your one leg drill your shoulders begin rotating open first followed by your torso and then lastly your hips. You can see it clearly in the frame by frame. Nothing wrong with an all arm shot, there's times when you need to have a strong arm. It's just opposite the mechanics needed when driving off the tee for max distance. When you x step that sequence starts in the hips. That's what you do in your x step.

SaROCaM 10-07-2020 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640960)
I honestly believe that mentally I'm quite refined in how the shot needs to work, where the power comes from, etc.

A lot of people honestly believe a lot of things.

The body of evidence tells the truth.

For example, if you think the Feldberg video is completely wrong, then you simply do not understand how the throw works.

If you look at the kinetic sequence as demonstrated by world record distance thrower David Wiggins Jr. you will (should) see what Feldberg is talking about.


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