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pjhayes7 06-16-2021 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperWookie (Post 3728869)
Exactly this! DM has been reactive instead of proactive, and that is just bad business.

So what exactly would you call the Evolution and Active line expansions. I admit the agreement with Innova ultimately was unsustainable and should have been obvious for a while. Maybe it is worse than you make it out to be. Innova could be the one saying, "nope, we are only going to run your discs if we have time unless you pay this much more money for extra time". Who knows if that would make the margins basically nonexistent for those molds.

But to say DM is doing nothing proactive is ignoring facts. They probably should have gotten expanded lines/agreements with other manufacturers sooner, but better late than never. Yes they have and will probably lose sales if they drop the Originals line, but how is it different from the situation of getting no production during the pandemic anyway. Almost like the decision was already made for them. Seems like the perfect time to cut the cord.

Good businesses don't avoid mistakes, that is impossible. What makes you a bad business is never course correcting when the inevitable mistakes do come. It seems like DM may be doing that. And i would argue that to continue the Originals line is probably a worse strategy for them long term than to end it now.

You are coming at this as a consumer and fan, they have to think about it as building something sustainable even at the cost of short term losses.

seedlings 06-16-2021 04:12 PM

It’s also possible that some of the recent molds have been attempts to recreate the Originals (Essence to FD, Enigma to DD3, Origin to MD, etc.) BUT the reverse engineering, while close, is off a bit.

DiscJunkie 06-16-2021 05:37 PM

Fact: Innova has several identical mold assemblies for their popular discs (thanks flick for some actual facts), so they can be duplicated. Whether reverse-engineering them is illegal, is a different question. It can most certainly be done.
Fact: Discmania is in business to make money, just like Innova. Jussi and Dave will act in ways that maximize their profitability over time. Both will act in their own best interests, as they should. Jussi did this (acting in DM’s best interests) by expanding DM to Evolution and Active lines.
Fact: Innova is prioritizing making discs for other partners instead of DM.
Speculation: My suspicion is that Dave saw this expansion (Evolution and Active) as counter to Innova’s best interests and so he has effectively cut off DM to cultivate new, more dependent and predictable revenue streams (Infinite, etc).
Fact: How DM reacts to and adapts to Innova’s decision (to favor other partners) will depend on their contractual relationship, and DM’s own best interests.
Speculation: Recognizing how brand-loyal and name-loyal many (most?) disc golfers are (also recognizing that DGCR forum followers are a tiny minority), I doubt that Innova and DM will completely part ways. It seems to me that it would not be in eithers best interests.
Fact: DM will continue to move away from dependence on Innova and begin (as they have already announced) using Evolution and Active discs for special Tour Series and Fundraising discs.
Fact: They will continue to produce discs that meet the needs and requests of their Tour players (Tilt, Splice, Mutant, Logic, Link, etc, etc).
Speculation: I doubt that Eagle and Simon, etc are considering moving away from DM. Most touring pros have YEARS worth of discs that they can call on, even if Innova never makes another DM disc.

Ahildy13 06-16-2021 08:51 PM

I know that Simon and Eagle care about DM, and like to be on the team, but I also believe that both of them are worth a contract equal to or greater than Mcbeths $10 mil; simply because of their social media presence.
I'm going to say that they will end up on the teams that can afford them, and I don't know that DM can.

pjhayes7 06-16-2021 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahildy13 (Post 3728984)
I know that Simon and Eagle care about DM, and like to be on the team, but I also believe that both of them are worth a contract equal to or greater than Mcbeths $10 mil; simply because of their social media presence.
I'm going to say that they will end up on the teams that can afford them, and I don't know that DM can.

I suspect DM may be able to back the truck up for one of them, but not both. I would suspect it would be Eagle, as he has the more overall promising future. I am sure Innova would be glad to have Simon. And then he could start throwing a bunch of "Champion plastic" discs that are Huk dyed to hide any removed stamp.

Whoever signs Eagle to his next contract, i suspect it will be similar to the McBeth one and as you argued, will likely pay off more in the long run. Eagle to me is the most valuable marketing tool any disc golf company can have.

dehaas 06-16-2021 10:06 PM

The initial cost for equipment and space to mold your own plastic is probably quite a bit.

Early on if the relationship worked, why rock the boat? The money not tied up in equipment can be used for other things…such as contracts for Eagle and Simon.

Jussi came from a marketing background prior to Discmania. He’s not like Dave D and Dave Mac, or the MVP bros who are all disc/plastic nerds. Not surprising things were ran to coincide with his strengths and not with his weaknesses. Pretty much all of us would do the same thing.

I still think whatever we’re going to see in a couple of days will boil down to the contracts between Innova and DM and how well or poorly they were written. And I still think some kind of efforts to work out a solution had been attempted…not like this alleged breakup came completely out of the blue.

VictorB 06-17-2021 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscJunkie (Post 3728949)
facts vs speculation

You have some good points, but the real meat of the 'what and why' lies within those speculation points.

We don't know if 1. DM created the Evo/Active lines as a proactive or reactive measure, 2. if Innova manufacturing decisions were root cause for those lines being created, and 3. why Innova is seemingly pushing down priority of DM runs, or if that is a direct result of DM creating additional lines with other companies

I think those are the real questions we want to know answers to (but will likely never find out, as the real answers will likely tarnish one of their brands images). Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

soothsayer 06-17-2021 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3728913)
^^^This!

Can you say Tilt? What a 'worthless' disc - 9/1/1/6. Simon and Eagle say it can't be thrown like a normal disc and works best upside-down. So who would want a disc like that? BUT....Simon designed it and Eagle has thrown it in tournaments....so of course it sells out immediately.

Its actually an awesome disc that is VERY useful. Just not for drives. (I was lucky enough to get a mystery box!) Ill be buying a Meta Tilt as soon as I can.

pjhayes7 06-17-2021 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3729052)
You have some good points, but the real meat of the 'what and why' lies within those speculation points.

We don't know if 1. DM created the Evo/Active lines as a proactive or reactive measure, 2. if Innova manufacturing decisions were root cause for those lines being created, and 3. why Innova is seemingly pushing down priority of DM runs, or if that is a direct result of DM creating additional lines with other companies

I think those are the real questions we want to know answers to (but will likely never find out, as the real answers will likely tarnish one of their brands images). Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

No, i would bet most of us in the discussion feel the same way. We would love to know the answers to those did they or didn't they questions. And I would not be surprised if some or many of the questions got some sort of answer over time, if not the complete one.

Honestly, if it comes out that Innova did not want to run sufficient DM discs to meet the demand, that does not make them the bad guy unless they are breaking part of the contract. It may be the case that no one looks bad because they did nothing wrong and only acting in their own best interest.

BillFleming 06-17-2021 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorB (Post 3729052)
You have some good points, but the real meat of the 'what and why' lies within those speculation points.

We don't know if 1. DM created the Evo/Active lines as a proactive or reactive measure, 2. if Innova manufacturing decisions were root cause for those lines being created, and 3. why Innova is seemingly pushing down priority of DM runs, or if that is a direct result of DM creating additional lines with other companies

I think those are the real questions we want to know answers to (but will likely never find out, as the real answers will likely tarnish one of their brands images). Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

4. are they just repeating themselves with different companies? (Does DM own the Evo/Active molds or just the names).

soothsayer 06-17-2021 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillFleming (Post 3729127)
4. are they just repeating themselves with different companies? (Does DM own the Evo/Active molds or just the names).

I am not super familiar with Lat64 molds. Are the DM Evo discs "similar" to any of the Lat64 discs? What I mean is: is Lat64 using existing mold pieces to make the Evo discs or are they unique molds? I think this would go towards answering your question.

If they are unique there is a good chance that DM learned their 'lesson'.

BillFleming 06-17-2021 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3729170)
I am not super familiar with Lat64 molds. Are the DM Evo discs "similar" to any of the Lat64 discs? What I mean is: is Lat64 using existing mold pieces to make the Evo discs or are they unique molds? I think this would go towards answering your question.

If they are unique there is a good chance that DM learned their 'lesson'.

We can only hope they learned their lesson. I don't know about the Latitud64 and Yikun molds (one is producing DM's Active and one is producing Evolution line per my understanding). Even if they aren't using molds they already own....it's possible DM asked the other companies to create the molds and Latitude64 and Yikun might actually own the molds. Kind of....we paid for the mold supplies, we made the mold...we will use the mold for your discs, but the mold belongs to us. If that is the situation, then nothing has really changed for Discmania.

I'm looking forward to hearing what Discmania has to say. Until then, we can only guess what is going on.

SuperWookie 06-17-2021 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soothsayer (Post 3729170)
I am not super familiar with Lat64 molds. Are the DM Evo discs "similar" to any of the Lat64 discs? What I mean is: is Lat64 using existing mold pieces to make the Evo discs or are they unique molds? I think this would go towards answering your question.

If they are unique there is a good chance that DM learned their 'lesson'.

Yes, they are very similar to other Lat64 molds. I have an Instinct, Essence, and Enigma, and all of them feel similar to some Lat64 disc I have or have touched. For example, the Instinct is very similar to the Lat 64 Explorer, and flies very similar.

Which isn't a bad thing per say. Lat 64 makes amazing plastic and molds. It's just that everyone who wants a DM disc, wants the EXACT SAME DISC that Simon or Eagle throws. And they both only throw Originals for the most part.

However, you are seeing both of them start to throw some of the new discs Lat 64 is producing for DM, but they are more utility or gimmick discs. Not the tried and true meat and potatoes discs they use like the MD, MD3/4/5, FD, FD2, FD3, PD, and PD2. That's what all the super fans want. So even though the new discs from DM (Lat 64) are good stuff, it's not what people want to buy.

Now if Simon and Eagle actually switch over and start using/bagging the Lat 64 discs IN tourneys, THEN you'll see DM sales go up for sure! Maybe that is the goal of Jussi and DM... to get Simon and Eagle to start bagging more of the new Lat 64 discs? Who knows? But most people just want to use what their favorite pros use, regardless of whether it's better or worse haha

Rastnav 06-17-2021 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperWookie (Post 3729221)
Yes, they are very similar to other Lat64 molds. I have an Instinct, Essence, and Enigma, and all of them feel similar to some Lat64 disc I have or have touched. For example, the Instinct is very similar to the Lat 64 Explorer, and flies very similar.

Which isn't a bad thing per say. Lat 64 makes amazing plastic and molds. It's just that everyone who wants a DM disc, wants the EXACT SAME DISC that Simon or Eagle throws. And they both only throw Originals for the most part.

However, you are seeing both of them start to throw some of the new discs Lat 64 is producing for DM, but they are more utility or gimmick discs. Not the tried and true meat and potatoes discs they use like the MD, MD3/4/5, FD, FD2, FD3, PD, and PD2. That's what all the super fans want. So even though the new discs from DM (Lat 64) are good stuff, it's not what people want to buy.

Now if Simon and Eagle actually switch over and start using/bagging the Lat 64 discs IN tourneys, THEN you'll see DM sales go up for sure! Maybe that is the goal of Jussi and DM... to get Simon and Eagle to start bagging more of the new Lat 64 discs? Who knows? But most people just want to use what their favorite pros use, regardless of whether it's better or worse haha

Eagle has played both the Splice and the Mutant a “metric f***ton” this year.

seedlings 06-17-2021 05:51 PM

Kyle Klein is throwing some new molds. Funny that Ricky pulled out a PD2 I thought I heard Gatekeeper say.

dehaas 06-17-2021 09:06 PM

If DM wanted a bunch of silly overstable discs for Simon and Eagle to throw they should’ve talked to Dave Mac at Gateway about producing stuff for them.

Kinda joking, kinda serious.

Their new plastic blends are actually fairly legit.

soothsayer 06-19-2021 08:02 AM

RIP ORIGINALS (?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI9uyC1W1-Q

DiscJunkie 06-19-2021 09:07 AM

That’s what it sounds like…

soothsayer 06-19-2021 09:12 AM

https://www.discmania.net/pages/next

what do people think of this?

Horsman 06-19-2021 09:32 AM

So a teaser to let us all down?

Three Putt 06-19-2021 09:33 AM

RIP Discmania.

DinosaurThunder 06-19-2021 09:54 AM

Just hope Innova keeps the FD and PD alive under a new monicker. End of this season will be very interesting to watch and see if any pros depart. Simon throws one non-originals mold during tournament play - says it all on the new discs.

Time to offload some originals for a nice juicy profit!

kw83028 06-19-2021 10:30 AM

In the biggest disc golf 12 month sales stretch ever, where I can't keep any stock on the shelf, the Evolution and Active lines just sit here. Maybe they'll get a little bump now. Hopefully DM has something amazing happening.

ray1970 06-19-2021 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinosaurThunder (Post 3729671)
Time to offload some originals for a nice juicy profit!

Yep. I’ve managed to work the P2’s, FD’s, MD3/4’s out of my bag. Seems like a good time to sell them and move on.

DiscJunkie 06-19-2021 10:33 AM

It’s difficult to see how totally parting ways with Innova benefits DM.
Maybe Jussi is focusing on the long-term.
Maybe Innova’s business plan or DM’s contractual arrangement afforded him no viable alternative.

At any rate, looks like we’ll get more info in a few days.

seedlings 06-19-2021 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscJunkie (Post 3729678)
It’s difficult to see how totally parting ways with Innova benefits DM.
Maybe Jussi is focusing on the long-term.
Maybe Innova’s business plan or DM’s contractual arrangement afforded him no viable alternative.

At any rate, looks like we’ll get more info in a few days.

Some companies market suspense and build-ups into positive statements. Others... build-up years into public crash-and-burn?
:sad face:

swhite 06-19-2021 10:46 AM

I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but this split between Discmania and Innova, and the likely expansion of Discmania molds made by Latitude 64 and Yikun Discs, may be very good for these last two companies, especially for Yikun Discs.

Yikun has recently been producing some really nice looking plastic. A few years ago I did not have a very high opinion of Yikun's plastic blends. But, they have upped their game significantly. Their stuff really is worth looking at.
This, and their apparent attempt to rapidly expand their lineup recently, makes it seem that they want to become more formidable players in this market.

If Eagle and Simon and company figure out how to work with Yikun's molds, I could see them really taking off.


https://infinitediscs.com/Inf_Upload...161446de21.JPG
https://infinitediscs.com/Inf_Upload...0003fe18c3.JPG

https://infinitediscs.com/Inf_Upload...00022938e7.JPG

XDrocker 06-19-2021 11:53 AM

1 Attachment(s)
good thing i stocked up!
have more somewhere...

Horsman 06-19-2021 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kw83028 (Post 3729675)
In the biggest disc golf 12 month sales stretch ever, where I can't keep any stock on the shelf, the Evolution and Active lines just sit here. Maybe they'll get a little bump now. Hopefully DM has something amazing happening.

Same, and even Legacy doesnt sell in a pandemic

oldmandiscer 06-19-2021 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DinosaurThunder (Post 3729671)
Just hope Innova keeps the FD and PD alive under a new monicker. End of this season will be very interesting to watch and see if any pros depart. Simon throws one non-originals mold during tournament play - says it all on the new discs.

Time to offload some originals for a nice juicy profit!

The PD does use the Discmania anhyzer top so Innova may have some issues reissuing that disc to Infinite or whatever. The FD I am not sure if they used a specific Discmania "Licensed" top or what. I don't know what the agreement was with the molds and the discs made for Discmania.

I figured this was going to happen. We already saw the P2 go to Infinite via the Alpaca.

wims 06-19-2021 12:13 PM

I dont see why any pros should depart because of this. Unless Jussi tells them not to throw the Originals anymore, but I can't see that happening. Even then I dont really see it happening. Sponsorship is about money, not about discs. Every company out there has great discs that can make up a pro bag

kw83028 06-19-2021 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horsman (Post 3729698)
Same, and even Legacy doesnt sell in a pandemic

I don't doubt it. I dropped Legacy a few years back after they had an average shelf life of 7 months per disc lol

Horsman 06-19-2021 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kw83028 (Post 3729710)
I don't doubt it. I dropped Legacy a few years back after they had an average shelf life of 7 months per disc lol

All the stock we have still came from an order about 5 years ago. Its crazy

BogeyNoMore 06-19-2021 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horsman (Post 3729711)
All the stock we have still came from an order about 5 years ago. Its crazy

Ouch!

dehaas 06-19-2021 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wims (Post 3729701)
I dont see why any pros should depart because of this. Unless Jussi tells them not to throw the Originals anymore, but I can't see that happening. Even then I dont really see it happening. Sponsorship is about money, not about discs. Every company out there has great discs that can make up a pro bag

You’re correct, sponsorships are about the money. However, it’s an open market negotiation so if Simon or Eagle shop around I’m sure somebody would match or make a better offer to land either. If the dollars are equal between two offers then other variables come into play.

I’m still not sure what to expect on Monday. Simon and Eagle are both locked into long term deals, but none of us know the details of those deals. Up until a couple years ago (pre McB to DC) a lot of sponsorships were verbal agreements. I don’t recall exactly which players in which instances, but a couple interview articles indicated that was the case for quite a while.

No clue how in depth and thorough player sponsorship contracts are, I’m guessing it can vary quite a bit from situation to situation. Given the growth and craziness of everything the last year it wouldn’t surprise me if there was a breach of contract somewhere between Innova and DM. If DM is having supply issues, that could potentially impact their ability to hold up a contractual obligation for tour series discs (aka cash) to Eagle or Simon.

I’m sure there are a lot of moving parts to this behind the scenes that will never see the light of day. One positive to take away possibly, is that for pro contracts going forward they’re a lot more thorough for random situations like this.

Ahildy13 06-19-2021 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wims (Post 3729701)
I dont see why any pros should depart because of this. Unless Jussi tells them not to throw the Originals anymore, but I can't see that happening. Even then I dont really see it happening. Sponsorship is about money, not about discs. Every company out there has great discs that can make up a pro bag

Correct, and Discmania has to have enough money to pay them...

ray1970 06-19-2021 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahildy13 (Post 3729737)
Correct, and Discmania has to have enough money to pay them...


Which it seems they’re banking on selling a bunch of trilogy/Chinese plastic that their top pros don’t even bag. We’ll see how that plays out I guess.

DiscJunkie 06-19-2021 06:43 PM

DM has demonstrated that they will produce what their big names (Simon and Eagle and maybe a few others) want.
Some questions that may be answered soon…
1. Will DM pros still be able to throw Originals? (Probably yes)
2. Will DM keep Eagle and Simon? (My heart says yes but my head says no)
3. Will DM survive the hit? (Painful, but not fatal)

Editorial:
While I still carry a few Originals molds (FD, FD3, PD, TD, MD, P3), also bag a few of the Evo and Active (Method, Rockstar, Origin, Genius). It’s nice throw DM molds that you can replace at retail prices!!

soothsayer 06-19-2021 08:00 PM

I just want to know what the "teaser" countdown is about? Like how are they going to spin this into a positive thing? Jussi already tried by literally thanking Dave Dunnipace and Harold Duval for....ending the relationship? Lets be real, the Originals are the discs people *really* want (yes, I know, Evo and Active are used by some but there isn't the fervor for them that exists for the Originals).

mas30066 06-19-2021 09:50 PM

Of course, doing the whole "thank you" wearing an Originals hoodie only stokes the fire. I *adore* the FD, but it's a wide, wide world out there.


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