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RoDeO 10-16-2020 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3644906)
The flawed comparison is the one you made because you are comparing yourself and seedlings to average novices who aren't on here dissecting form and doing drills. Of course you will be throwing farther than those players.

Players such as yourself and seedlings = apples

Players who are casual novices = oranges

You are the one comparing apples and oranges. I am saying you need to compare apples to apples.

Here is the breakdown as if it were an experiment:

Player 1 and Player 2 are both physically capable males between the age of 45-48 with substantially similar experience.

Player 1 uses method A. Player 2 uses method B

Player 2 achieves superior results to Player 1. Since factors such as age, experience, effort, etc. have been held equal, and the differentiating variable is which method each player used, it follows that method B yields superior results to method A.

Yes, you are both above average, which is precisely why comparing the two of you is more appropriate than comparing either of you to other novices. That pool of players has a wide variance in age, experience, time spent throwing, time spent studying form and technique, etc. You and seedlings have more attributes in common, so it is less likely that another variable accounts for the difference in results. In other words, it is easier to isolate the variable that accounts for the difference in results since other variables are substantially equal. "ceteris paribus" if you will.

If everything were documented in a perfectly controlled environment this may be true. But, we aren't in that environment and there are too many variables and unknowns and circumstances that make this almost impossible to measure this way.

For example, We dont know the physical abilities and/or limitations that each player had to begin with. We also don't know where each player started from to begin with (what distances each had starting out, dominant arm or not, etc). We also don't know which method each player is using. We thus do not know which method is better or superior. Other variables come into play like weather and elevation, practice location circumstances (throwing flat, downhill, uphill, into wind, downwind etc). On top of all that you have actual distances vs. Internet distances, measurements based on ? Does it allow for total distance or where it first touches ground. If it is for total measurement including skip are both playing surfaces the same? So many variables...

I can only vouch for myself. When I started LHBH it was very hard to get used to the actual handling, grip, guidance of the disc as my left hand is my weak non dominant hand. It took several weeks just to be able to get to where I felt comfortable even holding the disc. It took 6 weeks just to figure out a grip that didn't feel awkward. My putting sucked so bad lefty thst I couldn't even make a putt from inside 10 feet. So, I spent a lot of time over the first 6 weeks just throwing putters to get the feel right. I went through a period where I heard Mcbeth say something about throwing a 1000 putts a day or something. So, I did that every day until I could make a putt from 10-15 feet. I literally threw thousands and thousands of putts just to where I could be comfortable doing something that was completely uncomfortable and make a 10 foot putt left handed! That was time that could of been spent throwing drivers and working on distance. During this period I was throwing tons of putter rounds at the course mostly working on control and watching as much videos and reading forums as I could. The one advantage I had was that from the beginning I knew what the sequence was for throwing with the body. Overall, I think you have to factor this into the equation. On top of that, we have no idea what limitations or circumstances player 2 has in starting out.

Based on this alone I think it's kind of apples and oranges trying to compare player 1 with player 2. It's very possible that if I was using player 2's methods I would be stuck at 275 feet right now. And it's also very possible that if player 2 were using my methods he would only be throwing 275 feet right now. We conceptualize things different in our minds. I honestly believe I'm throwing very similar to a normal players throw right now. I conceptualize it differently but the result is the same as someone else who conceptualized it differently. My throw isn't unorthodox at all. I try to emulate what the top pros do just like everyone else. I just see the how and why differently than most. Where the rubber meets the road is results, plain and simply. I'm happy with my results so far. I've far surpassed my own goals for where I want to be throwing as a lefty. As I've said before, anything now is pure bonus. I've got my body conditioned now to where I can play and throw for several hours everyday with no pain and very little fatigue. I know my mechanics are sound because I can throw with very little effort and do it for hours on end. My arm literally never gets tired or sore even after a 2-3 hour throwing session. If I had incorrect mechanics there's no way I could throw hundreds of throws 300+ feet in a row during a session. The only part of my body that really gets fatigued is my hip from all the bracing. So I know I have a good brace.

I would be interested to know the circumstances of where Seedlings started. I think it's great he's throwing as far as he is. But in that same breath I'm very well pleased with my own distances considering overcoming my awkward off arm issues.

sidewinder22 10-16-2020 10:15 PM

I agree with much of you just said, I just find it ironic with many of the arguments you have made against me. I can spin the revolving door and elephant walk around all day with that form, so I'm clearly not strong arming it.

How tall are you and how would you rate your current health/athletic ability as compared to average?

RoDeO 10-16-2020 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3644937)
I agree with much of you just said, I just find it ironic with many of the arguments you have made against me. I can spin the revolving door and elephant walk around all day with that form, so I'm clearly not strong arming it.

How tall are you and how would you rate your current health/athletic ability as compared to average?

Here's what's irony- I have literally watched more of your drills than anyone else because I like your style and the way you throw. You aren't strong armong the disc. You have pretty solid mechanics and I have tried to emulate various parts of what you do in my own throw. There's just a few areas where I believe you give advice but the advice is how you think you throw when you actually throw different. There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same thing- throw different than how I verbalize and break it down. It's why I like to watch the actual distance parts of throwing in your videoes- where you actually throw it because you do many things very well. But if I try to do what you say sometimes it just flat out don't work for me and makes no sense. In my own mind I believe you could modify some of your drills and be more effective and closer to how you actually throw, nor how you think you throw.

I'm 5'10", 175 LBS. Im not sure if I'm athletic at this point in my life compared to my younger years as I don't have good hips or knees like I had when I was younger but I'm in great shape health wise with my heart and lungs. I throw everyday for a few hours and also find time to get a 10-20 mile bike ride in every night on the stationary bike.

sidewinder22 10-17-2020 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644941)
Here's what's irony- I have literally watched more of your drills than anyone else because I like your style and the way you throw. You aren't strong armong the disc. You have pretty solid mechanics and I have tried to emulate various parts of what you do in my own throw. There's just a few areas where I believe you give advice but the advice is how you think you throw when you actually throw different. There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same thing- throw different than how I verbalize and break it down. It's why I like to watch the actual distance parts of throwing in your videoes- where you actually throw it because you do many things very well. But if I try to do what you say sometimes it just flat out don't work for me and makes no sense. In my own mind I believe you could modify some of your drills and be more effective and closer to how you actually throw, nor how you think you throw.

I'm 5'10", 175 LBS. Im not sure if I'm athletic at this point in my life compared to my younger years as I don't have good hips or knees like I had when I was younger but I'm in great shape health wise with my heart and lungs. I throw everyday for a few hours and also find time to get a 10-20 mile bike ride in every night on the stationary bike.

Coaching in person is hard enough. Online coaching is much harder not being able to give instant feedback/correction, especially if the coach has never seen the student throw. The student is only seeing a small sample or snippet of what is being taught. As I've said in my Best Practices PSA about drills, if one drill isn't working for you, then move on to another, you might be doing it right already, or maybe horribly wrong. I also talk about making your own unique swing, not some cookie cutter approach like you accused me of before. If I was able to see your form before, perhaps I would have shown you the parts you needed to hear.

RoDeO 10-17-2020 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3644957)
Coaching in person is hard enough. Online coaching is much harder not being able to give instant feedback/correction, especially if the coach has never seen the student throw. The student is only seeing a small sample or snippet of what is being taught. As I've said in my Best Practices PSA about drills, if one drill isn't working for you, then move on to another, you might be doing it right already, or maybe horribly wrong. I also talk about making your own unique swing, not some cookie cutter approach like you accused me of before. If I was able to see your form before, perhaps I would have shown you the parts you needed to hear.

Aye. I have never been big on drills in any sport really that break down individual parts. The problem generally is that mechanics require the kinetic chain to develop and flow correctly. It's really hard to mimick real live motions without doing all the parts together.

I actually like quite a lot of your insights and analogies you use in your videos. Certain aspects are really spot on. Don't ever take my critique too negatively. I don't mean to be negative. I do appreciate your dedication and ingenuity. I can get irritated just as much as the next guy if I feel people are cornering me or mocking me.

RandyC 10-17-2020 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644843)
"Far" and "as far" are two different relative concepts.
I didn't say O was throwing "far". I said "as far". Like this morning, I was working on my hyzer flips and getting them out to 330-360. I had one that I really cranked on and it flipped up but then just turned its whole flight and right when it hit the ground it was just starting to want to fight out of the turn. I wished I gor it up higher to get a s flight. I only got that one up 6-8 feet off the ground though. It went 365 feet. I dont know how far it would have gone had I given it more height but maybe another 20-40 feet is fair.

I'm hitting 350 feet pretty regular now when warmed up. I think that's pretty good distance for my age (47) and how long I've been playing (3 1/2 months).

Here is my dad. 70y. Standstill parking a 300ft hole with a midrange. Even thou he does not acknowledge this but I recon he might be one of the furthers throwing 70y out there, he has some flaws in his mechanics, sure, but given his age who cares. Now I would argue that you are in a better shape and apparently need a runup, hyzerflip and a driver to gain 50ft more. So where is the blame if its not your mechanics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJMd...ature=youtu.be

RoDeO 10-17-2020 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644960)
Here is my dad. 70y. Standstill parking a 300ft hole with a midrange. Even thou he does not acknowledge this but I recon he might be one of the furthers throwing 70y out there, he has some flaws in his mechanics, sure, but given his age who cares. Now I would argue that you are in a better shape and apparently need a runup, hyzerflip and a driver to gain 50ft more. So where is the blame if its not your mechanics?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJMd...ature=youtu.be

That's awesome. I hope to be throwing when I'm 70 years old too.

I'm done with the pissin contests. I know what I throw, how I throw and it's easy effortless throws. So who cares eh?

RandyC 10-17-2020 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3644961)
That's awesome. I hope to be throwing when I'm 70 years old too.

I'm done with the pissin contests. I know what I throw, how I throw and it's easy effortless throws. So who cares eh?

This pissing contest is kept alive by just you in multiple threads and why I am taking your bait is because you offer advice to players who are trying to learn that contradict the proper mechanics of a good throw. So you are trying to intentionally slow their progress, even if you mean good by it but your belifs are false.

RoDeO 10-17-2020 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3644962)
This pissing contest is kept alive by just you in multiple threads and why I am taking your bait is because you offer advice to players who are trying to learn that contradict the proper mechanics of a good throw. So you are trying to intentionally slow their progress, even if you mean good by it but your belifs are false.

No one can dispute the video evidence I first offered in this thread. It's actually what Paul Mcbeth himself said. I'm just advocating what he actually said- that twitch or turn of the hips that happens before strong brace. You yourself do it RandyC. Are you going to dispute yourself? Are you going to try to tell me you yourself don't do something I can prove that you do?

RoDeO 10-17-2020 09:04 AM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2020/nbNYpY.gif

Strong brace happens as your lead foot plants solidly and your leg and lead hip come upward. At that precise moment how much hip rotation has occurred? A substantial amount. But let's back up a bit because it's most important to realize the exact monent of when that twitch or slight turn actually begins. If you watch carefully it happens right before your lead foot first touches down or right at the point of first contact before weight shift has occurred.

Randy, are you denying you do this?


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