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RowingBoats 10-12-2020 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642721)
But with more power also comes a decrease in control by the player throwing it.

I think you are way, way overemphasizing this due to having a 'max effort' swing that, to me, eschews proper mechanics. I am still learning, but for me, a 'max distance' throw is just the same basic swing with all of the input variables turned up. All of my swings so far are from a standstill, I haven't even begun to play around with an x-step. From 80-300ish feet my swing just has more or less of a reachback and torso loading as the main dividing factor in my movement.

Adding uncontrolled oomph is something that occasionally happens when I lapse, and always manifests as a wild throw. I just don't understand what you even mean when you say adding power in this vague kind of way. I don't believe pros are adding this unpredictable oomph into their swing to maybe gain distance as a gamble.

Frisbee-Hanski 10-12-2020 10:57 AM

Pros are incredibly accurate also when they throw very far. This was evident for example in the recent Dynamic Discs Open. Fantastic drives by McBeth, Gibson, Lizotte etc. It is a different thing when they are throwing pure distance. Then they can for example use 360 also.

RoDeO 10-12-2020 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RowingBoats (Post 3642950)
I think you are way, way overemphasizing this due to having a 'max effort' swing that, to me, eschews proper mechanics. I am still learning, but for me, a 'max distance' throw is just the same basic swing with all of the input variables turned up. All of my swings so far are from a standstill, I haven't even begun to play around with an x-step. From 80-300ish feet my swing just has more or less of a reachback and torso loading as the main dividing factor in my movement.

Adding uncontrolled oomph is something that occasionally happens when I lapse, and always manifests as a wild throw. I just don't understand what you even mean when you say adding power in this vague kind of way. I don't believe pros are adding this unpredictable oomph into their swing to maybe gain distance as a gamble.

Maybe it's easier to relay with baseball. We have all seen it- the count is 0-2 with the tying run on third base and 2 outs in the 9th inning. Is the batter going to try to swing with max effort to crush the ball or is he more likely to choke up on the bat, scoot up to the plate and take some power off? He is more likely to choke up and take some power off. Why? Because max effort in sports actions carries with it increased chances of failure. It's easier to control and finesse when you don't have max effort involved. Now, let's reverse the situation. It's the top of the first inning with a 3-1 count. Is the player going to be persuaded more to try to hit a homerun? Yes.

It's a scale. As a player pushes more to the max effort end of the scale the increased chance of unpredictability comes into play. It's harder to control and guide muscular and skeletal ability when you are pushing it to the max. Pros, as well as amateurs, know this. The difference is of course that the more experience one gets, the more they try to control max effort equates to the more they learn and better they become. But it's still all relative to their peers generally. It's why, in top tier play, players will only take risks according to how their peers are playing. I've seen low powered control shots when the stakes are high and the scores are close. When a player gets down by a lot but still an outside chance they are more generally inclined to try new things, play with more chance for error, take bigger risks, try new lines, tee off with more power, etc. They begin to play with more max efforts, take greater risks in the hope they will get lucky and the gamble pays off.

Auto racing is the same. A driver out in front by a large margin will drive at a lower effort than max because it's easier to control. A driver behind will start taking risks, driving on that edge of chaos in hopes that the gamble pays off and he can catch up.

RoDeO 10-12-2020 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisbee-Hanski (Post 3642971)
Pros are incredibly accurate also when they throw very far. This was evident for example in the recent Dynamic Discs Open. Fantastic drives by McBeth, Gibson, Lizotte etc. It is a different thing when they are throwing pure distance. Then they can for example use 360 also.

Incredibly accurate is relative. A 450-500+ shot by a pro on a wide open fairway is going to generally end up anywhere within a 150-200 foot diameter circle of where they are aiming. We see this all the time with big drives off the tee and players constantly putting themselves way OB or behind some large bush clear on the opposite side of the fairway from where they were aiming. So, if "incredibly accurate" means within 150-200 feet of where they were exactly aiming the majority of the time then I agree. But, incredibly accurate for a pro means more along the lines of hitting a 50 foot diameter circle at 450-500+ feet. No pro can do that with consistency.

RocHucker 10-12-2020 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3642985)
Incredibly accurate is relative. A 450-500+ shot by a pro on a wide open fairway is going to generally end up anywhere within a 150-200 foot diameter circle of where they are aiming. We see this all the time with big drives off the tee and players constantly putting themselves way OB or behind some large bush clear on the opposite side of the fairway from where they were aiming. So, if "incredibly accurate" means within 150-200 feet of where they were exactly aiming the majority of the time then I agree. But, incredibly accurate for a pro means more along the lines of hitting a 50 foot diameter circle at 450-500+ feet. No pro can do that with consistency.

The title of this thread is "Rocking the Hips".

I saw that there was activity on this thread so I logged in to check it out and hopefully get some helpful perspectives on hip engagement during the throw, which is something that I'm trying to improve in my throw. I was dismayed to find that the last page and a half has been completely irrelevant to the thread topic.

If anyone wants to dive into a topic that is not relevant to a given thread, please start a new thread.

This has become a bit of a pattern with threads that you're engaging with, Rodeo. Whatever your intentions are (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're a well-meaning person who is excited about diving into technique and happens to have opinions that differ from what is commonly accepted), please look at what the actual results are when you hijack threads to talk about your own ideas and then dig your heels in when people disagree. The result is that people can't click on a thread about "Rocking the Hips" or "One leg drill" and have any confidence that the discussion there will actually be about the hips or the one leg drill. This makes this website as a whole a less useful tool for the disc golf community, which I hope anyone would agree is a shame.

So please, keep slingin those discs and have fun disc golfing, but before replying to a thread on here please ask yourself whether or not your post is relevant to the thread. If a thread is specifically about what type of feeling or biomechanical action facilitates more efficient power transfer from the hips, then advocating "max effort, muscle training, etc.", is not relevant, nor is debating the trade-offs between power and control. Feel free to debate these things in a thread where they are relevant, or start a new thread, but please respect people who want to be able to learn about the topic that a given thread was created to discuss.

RoDeO 10-12-2020 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocHucker (Post 3643034)
The title of this thread is "Rocking the Hips".

I saw that there was activity on this thread so I logged in to check it out and hopefully get some helpful perspectives on hip engagement during the throw, which is something that I'm trying to improve in my throw. I was dismayed to find that the last page and a half has been completely irrelevant to the thread topic.

If anyone wants to dive into a topic that is not relevant to a given thread, please start a new thread.

This has become a bit of a pattern with threads that you're engaging with, Rodeo. Whatever your intentions are (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're a well-meaning person who is excited about diving into technique and happens to have opinions that differ from what is commonly accepted), please look at what the actual results are when you hijack threads to talk about your own ideas and then dig your heels in when people disagree. The result is that people can't click on a thread about "Rocking the Hips" or "One leg drill" and have any confidence that the discussion there will actually be about the hips or the one leg drill. This makes this website as a whole a less useful tool for the disc golf community, which I hope anyone would agree is a shame.

So please, keep slingin those discs and have fun disc golfing, but before replying to a thread on here please ask yourself whether or not your post is relevant to the thread. If a thread is specifically about what type of feeling or biomechanical action facilitates more efficient power transfer from the hips, then advocating "max effort, muscle training, etc.", is not relevant, nor is debating the trade-offs between power and control. Feel free to debate these things in a thread where they are relevant, or start a new thread, but please respect people who want to be able to learn about the topic that a given thread was created to discuss.

It was a side topic that Rowingboats started. It was sidetracked after I said I was powering down so that I could work on control. I think people just want to debate anything I say. If I say black, they argue for white...

But I agree that it should stay on topic. I think I may start a power vs. control thread, sounds interesting.

sidewinder22 10-13-2020 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3641501)
I am simply advocating what Paul and Nate were teaching in the video I posted. GG is an advocate for increasing hip rotation speed. He has a video on distance tips and his #1 tip is to work on faster hip rotation.

The importance of rotating powerfully is key to distance. Knowing how and when that rotation begins is also key. Knowing the difference between strongarming and whipping the arm by the body is also key.

You cannot rotate the hips and use the body if you have the wrong mindset. The belief that rotation begins at brace is wrong. The belief that sole lateral shift creates rotation is also wrong. The danger or problem with teaching these philosophies is that it doesnt promote proper hip and core rotation. Im advocating for the mindset of the hips already starting to rotate coming into brace. At that moment you should thus feel like the core is wound up a bit at which time it can unwind or rotate powerfully. If you are at brace moment (complete weight shift) and feel no wound up energy from the twisting of the hips against the torso you are doing it wrong and will not be able to properly whip the disc through.

GG doesn't mention hip rotation. He says he rocks the hips back and whips them forward.

You are talking about your mindset and philosophy and feel and timing which is different than most others that throw further than you.

Here PP is demonstrating and talking about the hip twitch as a powerful lateral move. Belief can be different than reality, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong as a swing thought or inhibit proper rotation. Notice how she starts rotating more as she lags the arm back, so she is in fact rotating, unlike you said before, and she has more rotational momentum with the backswing or leaving the arm back behind the lateral drive off the rear leg. She isn't really trying to rotate more/faster, she just has more rotational momentum from the backswing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lvXcIcNGgs&t=2m30s
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2020/yTcLIK.gif

timothy42b 10-13-2020 07:53 AM

Where is that drill? I never could find it.

RoDeO 10-13-2020 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3643254)
GG doesn't mention hip rotation. He says he rocks the hips back and whips them forward.

You are talking about your mindset and philosophy and feel and timing which is different than most others that throw further than you.

Here PP is demonstrating and talking about the hip twitch as a powerful lateral move. Belief can be different than reality, but that doesn't necessarily make it wrong as a swing thought or inhibit proper rotation. Notice how she starts rotating more as she lags the arm back, so she is in fact rotating, unlike you said before, and she has more rotational momentum with the backswing or leaving the arm back behind the lateral drive off the rear leg. She isn't really trying to rotate more/faster, she just has more rotational momentum from the backswing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lvXcIcNGgs&t=2m30s
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2020/yTcLIK.gif

If one is thinking a powerful lateral move and consequently are beginning hip rotation as part of that then great. The problem is if a person is doing drills and trying to laterally shift with no rotation onto the front foot and then trying to rotate once their weight has shifted. If all your weight has shifted off the back leg and onto the front leg and you haven't initiated hip rotation then it's not possible for it to happen at that point. Strongarming then becomes the culprit outcome.

I'm just making an observation about the triggers in the sequence. When and where exactly does the trigger occur that initiates hip rotation? It is initiated as the lead leg is coming into brace but before the brace actually occurs. If we understand that then it is easier to understand how important the loading of a partially rotated hip is coming into brace. That load into brace becomes even more as the brace develops which then power the rotation of the torso and shoulders. It's a twisting rubber band effect of sorts that powerfully create the torque needed to rotate the upper body and turn that powerful rotational Force into throwing the disc. One must feel that twist happening from their hips up into their shoulders in a sequence to throw correctly. Otherwise it's just all arming and most beginners are guilty of that and can't figure out how to overcome that issue. I was guilty too as a RHBH player before I switched to LHBH. Most new players try to throw the disc with their arm, just like you do with your Wal-Mart frisbee.

If you don't mind me asking- were you guilty too of strongarming when you very first started? Also, just curious, how ling was it from the time you first started to where you could throw 350 feet the correct way (not strongarming)?

RandyC 10-13-2020 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3643334)
If one is thinking a powerful lateral move and consequently are beginning hip rotation as part of that then great. The problem is if a person is doing drills and trying to laterally shift with no rotation onto the front foot and then trying to rotate once their weight has shifted. If all your weight has shifted off the back leg and onto the front leg and you haven't initiated hip rotation then it's not possible for it to happen at that point. Strongarming then becomes the culprit outcome.

I'm just making an observation about the triggers in the sequence. When and where exactly does the trigger occur that initiates hip rotation? It is initiated as the lead leg is coming into brace but before the brace actually occurs. If we understand that then it is easier to understand how important the loading of a partially rotated hip is coming into brace. That load into brace becomes even more as the brace develops which then power the rotation of the torso and shoulders. It's a twisting rubber band effect of sorts that powerfully create the torque needed to rotate the upper body and turn that powerful rotational Force into throwing the disc. One must feel that twist happening from their hips up into their shoulders in a sequence to throw correctly. Otherwise it's just all arming and most beginners are guilty of that and can't figure out how to overcome that issue. I was guilty too as a RHBH player before I switched to LHBH. Most new players try to throw the disc with their arm, just like you do with your Wal-Mart frisbee.

If you don't mind me asking- were you guilty too of strongarming when you very first started? Also, just curious, how ling was it from the time you first started to where you could throw 350 feet the correct way (not strongarming)?

I am kinda curious what you define as strongarming?


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