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-   -   The Twitch of the Hips (https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137717)

RoDeO 10-04-2020 12:18 PM

The Twitch of the Hips
 
I have had a hard time trying to relate to others the timing and impact of the turning of the hips in generating power. When I used to play RHBH with my dominant arm there was this tendency to pull the disc withmt right arm and then let everything drag through. Then I saw a video where one needed to generate power with their hips. So, evwn though I was going through the motions I was still strongarming the disc. I ended up damaging my forearm around my elbow and had to stop playing. I was impatient with recovery so I completely started over and learned to throw LHBH. For the first time I could feel my arm being whipped. I stumbled upon this video this morning with Nate Sexton and Paul Mcbeth and they said something that reinforces my philosophy.

https://youtu.be/U0gzNIRxRbY

Around the 5:00 minute mark they talk about the motion or twitch and rotation of the hip initiating shoulder rotation. I think the feeling is important in knowing if you are strongarming the disc or allowing the hip twitch initial rotation to move the shoulder and activate the torso in whipping the arm through. With strongarming the disc you never feel the backside of the shoulder and arm being pulled by that initial twitch when the arm is still in the reachback position. There has been some debate as to when this twitch or initial rotation of the hips begin. According to Paul Mcbeth and Nate Sefton in the video that twitch or rotation begins at front foot contact with the arm in full reachback but before weight shift. When you get the sequence right you should feel like your shoulder is being pulled from reachback, into the power pocket, and into release. That pull feel on the backside of the shoulder should be a steady buildup from reachback until release.

txmxer 10-04-2020 12:21 PM

DrewGibson talks about that.

The idea is you lower body leads. It’s like a wave from foot to finger tip. Hence whip.

seedlings 10-04-2020 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txmxer (Post 3639708)
DrewGibson talks about that.

The idea is you lower body leads. Itís like a wave from foot to finger tip. Hence whip.

Plus there is a hesitation of the body rotation at the release point, otherwise there is no whip. (The brace)

seedlings 10-04-2020 08:06 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2020/mwjVV4.gif

RoDeO 10-04-2020 08:27 PM

Another thing I'm noticing is that it appears almost counterintuitive to our philosophy but the acceleration of the disc begins at reachback and not at the power pocket.

seedlings 10-04-2020 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3639850)
Another thing I'm noticing is that it appears almost counterintuitive to our philosophy but the acceleration of the disc begins at reachback and not at the power pocket.

The motion from reach back to pocket, if the disc were released at the chest, would be only enough to flutter the disc a small distance. To say acceleration starts at reach back is technically correct, but the overwhelming power development in the shot comes from chest out. (Edit: chest out, propelled by hip/shoulder rotation, to clarify)

timothy42b 10-05-2020 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3639706)
I completely started over and learned to throw LHBH. For the first time I could feel my arm being whipped.

I am strongly right hand dominant and strongly left hand uncoordinated.

A few years back I injured the rotator cuff throwing boomerangs and I played disc golf left handed a bit.

I did not attempt power pocket or an elbow hinge. (I hadn't heard the terms then) I just threw left handed like a tennis backhand, mostly straight arm and as relaxed as I could get it. This actually worked pretty well. I guess now that would be called wide rail, though again I hadn't heard the term at the time.

So my guess is that a wide rail shot requires a little less precision in timing and is a little harder to muscle, and it ends up being easier to coordinate with the less dominant hand, and you end up getting more body and less strong arm into it.

azplaya25 10-05-2020 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3639706)

https://youtu.be/U0gzNIRxRbY

According to Paul Mcbeth and Nate Sefton in the video that twitch or rotation begins at front foot contact with the arm in full reachback but before weight shift.

I donít think anyone cares if you are too stubborn to take the advice of all the people who told you this isnít correct...but going and starting separate threads and trying to teach others your poor form isnít cool man. Point me to the place where Paul and Nate say that you should start rotating your hips before weight shift? Paul is demonstrating how he can push his hips forward to move his arm and his weight is on his back leg as heís showing this idea. That doesnít mean heís driving like this. Look at his actual throw. All 4 of these pros have their front heels on the ground before they rotate and swing.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-13-2018/5xSvyk.gif


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RoDeO 10-05-2020 11:28 AM

Paul discusses it at around the 5 minute mark, Nate talks about it at the 6:20 mark. They speak of that twitch. This is when the disc is still back and clearly before their heel is on the ground. They speak of that first few inches of the pull from reachback begin with the rotation of the hips. That happens before the heel comes down into a strong brace.

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 11:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI9tUrjjwXk&t=1m44s

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 11:53 AM

https://vimeo.com/64171158

RoDeO 10-05-2020 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640034)

Horrible tip video. Not much I can say. We're not bowling folks.

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640051)
Horrible tip video. Not much I can say. We're not bowling folks.

https://i.imgur.com/ubuer3F.png
https://i.imgur.com/vgUGd4W.png

RoDeO 10-05-2020 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640052)

Yeah, the majority of the top 10 disc golf pros do not throw like that. The top two- Mcbeth and Heimberg don't throw like that.

ru4por 10-05-2020 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640057)
Yeah, the majority of the top 10 disc golf pros do not throw like that. The top two- Mcbeth and Heimberg don't throw like that.

If you throw like the top ten golfers, I am not sure why you ask for help here?

SaROCaM 10-05-2020 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640057)
Yeah, the majority of the top 10 disc golf pros do not throw like that. The top two- Mcbeth and Heimberg don't throw like that.

Actually:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...ictureid=39058

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640057)
Yeah, the majority of the top 10 disc golf pros do not throw like that. The top two- Mcbeth and Heimberg don't throw like that.

Feldberg was player of the decade.
Schusterick top bowling pic was former #1 player 3x USDGC champ.
Lizotte is the bottom bowling pic.

SaROCaM 10-05-2020 01:10 PM

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...ictureid=37139

RoDeO 10-05-2020 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3640065)

Yeah his hips are turned open, they aren't sideways bro.

RoDeO 10-05-2020 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640067)
Feldberg was player of the decade.
Schusterick top bowling pic was former #1 player 3x USDGC champ.
Lizotte is the bottom bowling pic.

Sidewinder, you don't even throw like that video.

RoDeO 10-05-2020 01:50 PM

Go and wstch that video Sidewinder posted. In the video he advocates a complete lateral shift with no rotation. Even at release he is advocating you bring your rear leg behind your front leg which would actually cause opposite rotation. Then after release, somehow your momentum causes you to rotate back the other way? That's just bad advice. It's completely opposite of what McBeth and Sexton were teaching.

SaROCaM 10-05-2020 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640092)
Go and wstch that video Sidewinder posted. In the video he advocates a complete lateral shift with no rotation. Even at release he is advocating you bring your rear leg behind your front leg which would actually cause opposite rotation. Then after release, somehow your momentum causes you to rotate back the other way? That's just bad advice. It's completely opposite of what McBeth and Sexton were teaching.

It is a drill to exaggerate the motion in order to correct a common issue. He's not saying that's exactly how to throw, it is just to get a feel for the correction to make for that particular issue.

Same with the McBeth and Sexton video you posted. What they are saying is 1) don't swing too early and 2) don't open up the hips too early. They are using the exaggerated hip motion to drive the point home about building from the ground up.

When you more fully understand what is going on with the throw you'll see what they are talking about. Until then it can be confusing and appear like they are conflicting. They aren't. They are speaking to different things.

RoDeO 10-05-2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaROCaM (Post 3640097)
It is a drill to exaggerate the motion in order to correct a common issue. He's not saying that's exactly how to throw, it is just to get a feel for the correction to make for that particular issue.

Same with the McBeth and Sexton video you posted. What they are saying is 1) don't swing too early and 2) don't open up the hips too early. They are using the exaggerated hip motion to drive the point home about building from the ground up.

When you more fully understand what is going on with the throw you'll see what they are talking about. Until then it can be confusing and appear like they are conflicting. They aren't. They are speaking to different things.

They are teaching opposite motions. Mcbeth and Sexton actually nail it very well. That other video is just bad advice.

seedlings 10-05-2020 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640092)
Go and wstch that video Sidewinder posted. In the video he advocates a complete lateral shift with no rotation. Even at release he is advocating you bring your rear leg behind your front leg which would actually cause opposite rotation. Then after release, somehow your momentum causes you to rotate back the other way? That's just bad advice. It's completely opposite of what McBeth and Sexton were teaching.

Similar advice to Paul and Nate saying not to drag your left foot, while they seem to drag their left foot. Thereís a sense where you do and a sense where you donít. In the drag the foot, the left foot stops on the ground, or slightly off the ground at the brace, and then drags through. Descriptions of intangible athletic movements.

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 02:15 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHy227OYGP0&t=17m56s

seedlings 10-05-2020 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640104)

That is such a helpful video. Iíve watched it a dozen times.

dreadlock86 10-05-2020 02:41 PM

pretty sure this thread has already fulfilled all the requirements for a typical RoDeO thread.

now that people who know what they are talking about have corrected the record, can this thread die please?

RoDeO 10-05-2020 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640104)

More bad advice. According to that video you yourself have horrible mechanics.
https://youtu.be/ok26o-xSVRA
(BTW I actually think you have pretty good mechanics, so don't listen to them guys)

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640142)
More bad advice. According to that video you yourself have horrible mechanics.
https://youtu.be/ok26o-xSVRA
(BTW I actually think you have pretty good mechanics, so don't listen to them guys)

It's in there like Prego.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2020/KKHX2u.gif

RoDeO 10-05-2020 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640212)

Yep, they are opening their hips as they pull the disc into their power pocket. I think its a case again of a pro giving information about how they think a person should throw but yet the best don't really throw that way.

BTW, you dont throw like either of those guys. Nothing wrong with that, just saying...

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640220)
Yep, they are opening their hips as they pull the disc into their power pocket. I think its a case again of a pro giving information about how they think a person should throw but yet the best don't really throw that way.

BTW, you dont throw like either of those guys. Nothing wrong with that, just saying...

You throw like them?

RoDeO 10-05-2020 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder22 (Post 3640232)
You throw like them?

No, I actually throw more like you.

sidewinder22 10-05-2020 10:23 PM

"I'm gonna rock the hips back, and whip the hips forward timed with the arm."
"You can see I had pretty fast motion whenever I came back to forward and the hips came thru really fast."

https://i.imgur.com/deomhBN.png

twistedraven 10-05-2020 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3639850)
Another thing I'm noticing is that it appears almost counterintuitive to our philosophy but the acceleration of the disc begins at reachback and not at the power pocket.

Not really. All you're really doing is guiding the disc into the power pocket to really accelerate it once in the pocket. You're not accelerating it as hard as you can from the peak of the reachback, because your arm will already be tense and tired and not loose enough to give it the most amount velocity at the release point.

Here's my crude drawing comparing the two:

https://i.imgur.com/IbPkmkE.jpg

RoDeO 10-06-2020 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedraven (Post 3640298)
Not really. All you're really doing is guiding the disc into the power pocket to really accelerate it once in the pocket. You're not accelerating it as hard as you can from the peak of the reachback, because your arm will already be tense and tired and not loose enough to give it the most amount velocity at the release point.

Here's my crude drawing comparing the two:

https://i.imgur.com/IbPkmkE.jpg

Aye.

RandyC 10-06-2020 02:33 AM

So every professional player says do not spin the hips. Everyone here who throws far says do not spin the hips. You are lacking in distance and say that spinning the hips is the key and your only argument behind this theory is that people who throw far are actually completely unaware what their bodies are doing. I mean wouldnt there be atleast one who would know the difference?

RoDeO 10-06-2020 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyC (Post 3640335)
So every professional player says do not spin the hips. Everyone here who throws far says do not spin the hips. You are lacking in distance and say that spinning the hips is the key and your only argument behind this theory is that people who throw far are actually completely unaware what their bodies are doing. I mean wouldnt there be atleast one who would know the difference?

You have to rotate the hips to throw the disc. Every professional rotates their hips in throwing the disc. That's not an area of debate. The area of debate is when you begin to rotate the hips. You are arguing against Paul and Nate if you say not to rotate the hips or that the power to throw doesn't come from the legs up which include the rotation of the hips.

Now, as to my lacking in distance- let me ask this- how far should a 47 year old who started 3 months ago be throwing? If you are making that claim of my lacking distance in relation to when I started and my age then please show me what someone my age who started 3 months ago should be throwing.

ru4por 10-06-2020 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640390)
You have to rotate the hips to throw the disc. Every professional rotates their hips in throwing the disc. That's not an area of debate. The area of debate is when you begin to rotate the hips. You are arguing against Paul and Nate if you say not to rotate the hips or that the power to throw doesn't come from the legs up which include the rotation of the hips.

Now, as to my lacking in distance- let me ask this- how far should a 47 year old who started 3 months ago be throwing? If you are making that claim of my lacking distance in relation to when I started and my age then please show me what someone my age who started 3 months ago should be throwing.

I feel this is part of the noob trap. Really many things that can be seen in the throws of McBeth, KJ, Heimberg....don't really translate to the noob or rec player. Don't get me wrong, there are always a set of mechanics....SW is very good at providing information for use along this lines. But, professional, high level, disc golfers have different goals and play different courses.

I cannot tell you how many times I "discovered" more distance in a flex line. Only to learn something new that translated into more distance, but I then move back to a hyzer line to learn and use it. Lo and behold, back to the turnover flex....only to learn to stop rounding....

Each plateau seem like I had it ALL figured out. But, really I was very slowly teaching myself basic mechanics to build on. Building a foundation for years of safe play. The drills and videos, many post here, are designed to build that foundation. They do not translate in to the ability to throw a putter 500 ft. They are not designed to retro fit your noob form to mimic the Conrad run up, KJ putt.

RoDeO 10-06-2020 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ru4por (Post 3640406)
I feel this is part of the noob trap. Really many things that can be seen in the throws of McBeth, KJ, Heimberg....don't really translate to the noob or rec player. Don't get me wrong, there are always a set of mechanics....SW is very good at providing information for use along this lines. But, professional, high level, disc golfers have different goals and play different courses.

I cannot tell you how many times I "discovered" more distance in a flex line. Only to learn something new that translated into more distance, but I then move back to a hyzer line to learn and use it. Lo and behold, back to the turnover flex....only to learn to stop rounding....

Each plateau seem like I had it ALL figured out. But, really I was very slowly teaching myself basic mechanics to build on. Building a foundation for years of safe play. The drills and videos, many post here, are designed to build that foundation. They do not translate in to the ability to throw a putter 500 ft. They are not designed to retro fit your noob form to mimic the Conrad run up, KJ putt.

Not sure what you mean by the noob trap. I don't see myself in a trap. I feel like the number 1 thing right now for more distance in myself is conditioning muscles to fire better and faster. The mechanic tweaks will add a little bit more. Understanding how the disc is propelled is 90% of the mystery. I feel I know that. Now, getting consistency and building upon that foundation is all that's left.

RandyC 10-06-2020 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoDeO (Post 3640390)
You have to rotate the hips to throw the disc. Every professional rotates their hips in throwing the disc. That's not an area of debate. The area of debate is when you begin to rotate the hips. You are arguing against Paul and Nate if you say not to rotate the hips or that the power to throw doesn't come from the legs up which include the rotation of the hips.

Now, as to my lacking in distance- let me ask this- how far should a 47 year old who started 3 months ago be throwing? If you are making that claim of my lacking distance in relation to when I started and my age then please show me what someone my age who started 3 months ago should be throwing.

Should have probably worded that better not lack of distance but knowledge. Yes hips do rotate but do you consciously rotate them is a different animal. Just a thought process here if you were on a snowboard the way you are describing the throw and the hip action would essentially be the start of a 360. Spinning the rear hip would send your left side around the front side and itīs not very efficent way to throw. I imagine if I were to throw whilst on a snowboard it would push the nose of the board down and lift the rear end.


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