#761  
Old 07-16-2018, 12:29 AM
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Can you explain this a bit more? When I watch pros, it doesn't seem like their really doing that, and the rear hip is already internally rotating into the plant at the top of the reach back (I'm assuming that's what door frame drill is trying to emulate?) Paige for example.
I'm not sure what you are asking? Paige's pelvis is turned back like mine. You also have to remember that drills are exaggerating something and the door frame is going to pull you back further than the dic will. The door frame drill is all backswing.
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  #762  
Old 07-16-2018, 12:55 AM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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There's a little limbo between those drills and crush the can where the swivel chair and riding the bull happen and spine reorients.

Not sure what you asking about getting back to flatish throwing position?

Everything definitely feels mirrored in backswing and forward swing and feels like you said right over rear foot and then over front foot. You won't see it in video going over the front foot(video will show it behind foot foot), so this is where feel is real and video lies because of all the compression while being dynamically upright.
The limbo between the drills is what I was meaning. The reorienting of the spine. You saying that these drills are backswing only, which is exactly right and I am aware, makes that make sense. The spine would reorient during this point kind of, right? So you'd be preparing to catch the spine on the front leg and it would be tilted more forward?

What I meant by getting back to a flatish throwing position was that if you were to be this far back you'd likely be throwing a high spike hyzer or something, because you aren't reorienting the spine to the plant leg. The wall is pulling you back more than the disc is, as you said in the next post.

I have not been feeling the shoulder swing over the rear foot, but that makes sense. I had been swinging shoulders over hips for a long time, and getting the throwing shoulder to swing over the plant foot on the throw really opened things up for me. So it makes sense to mirror it in the backswing, which I have not been doing.

So say I am doing a standstill shot, so I don't have to worry about leaving the disc behind etc. On the backswing I should feel the rear shoulder in open space over the rear foot that is braced through the ground, then I drop closed to the plant leg and the shoulder will rotate over the plant foot? With some dynamic balance of course, and this gets more complicated looking with an X-step.
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  #763  
Old 07-16-2018, 01:02 AM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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^Well you did say that you weren't actually leaning back, but you were tilted forward and turned back. I guess since I haven't taken a photo of myself hanging from that position I don't know if it would look like my butt was that far ahead of my spine, even if I feel like I'm leaning kind of upright/inside the stance while tilted over the toes. Makes more sense though, but the spine will reorient so the stuff I was asking about still applies. I am especially wondering about the shoulder over foot stuff.

The whole spine shifting, swinging, and rotating makes everything so much more complicated than I really thought the throw was going to be, even a few months ago.
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:05 AM
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I'm not sure what you are asking? Paige's pelvis is turned back like mine. You also have to remember that drills are exaggerating something and the door frame is going to pull you back further than the dic will. The door frame drill is all backswing.
I guess that's what I'm asking. I don't see them reaching their whole arm past their leg, and their rear leg doesn't look like the green line. Pelvis needing to be turned back from the image of Paige to mine makes more sense to me. Drills end up confusing me more than help because I need a literal explanation with abstract analogy to help me get from understanding what I'm seeing and trying to do (turning feels into reals). How I read the last post was, 'get your whole arm past your foot in the backswing', and when I watch pros I don't see that. If we're not doing that in the throw, why are we doing it in the drill?

I'm probably not getting a lot from drills because I don't understand what I'm trying to do, and in turn doing them wrong.
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  #765  
Old 07-16-2018, 01:09 AM
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I'm probably not getting a lot from drills because I don't understand what I'm trying to do, and in turn doing them wrong.
To me with the door frame drill, you are too parallel and not able to turn into the pelvis. The door frame should help pull you into more of a reachback/load, and gravity should go hand in hand with the rear leg pressure. At this point the rear leg is your brace and you should feel how you leverage into it with the reachback, while gravity is helping you stretch out more. This will also help you feel the drop into the plant with a long/late reachback rather than forward or upward or rotational movement.

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Old 07-16-2018, 01:28 AM
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The limbo between the drills is what I was meaning. The reorienting of the spine. You saying that these drills are backswing only, which is exactly right and I am aware, makes that make sense. The spine would reorient during this point kind of, right? So you'd be preparing to catch the spine on the front leg and it would be tilted more forward?

What I meant by getting back to a flatish throwing position was that if you were to be this far back you'd likely be throwing a high spike hyzer or something, because you aren't reorienting the spine to the plant leg. The wall is pulling you back more than the disc is, as you said in the next post.

I have not been feeling the shoulder swing over the rear foot, but that makes sense. I had been swinging shoulders over hips for a long time, and getting the throwing shoulder to swing over the plant foot on the throw really opened things up for me. So it makes sense to mirror it in the backswing, which I have not been doing.

So say I am doing a standstill shot, so I don't have to worry about leaving the disc behind etc. On the backswing I should feel the rear shoulder in open space over the rear foot that is braced through the ground, then I drop closed to the plant leg and the shoulder will rotate over the plant foot? With some dynamic balance of course, and this gets more complicated looking with an X-step.
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^Well you did say that you weren't actually leaning back, but you were tilted forward and turned back. I guess since I haven't taken a photo of myself hanging from that position I don't know if it would look like my butt was that far ahead of my spine, even if I feel like I'm leaning kind of upright/inside the stance while tilted over the toes. Makes more sense though, but the spine will reorient so the stuff I was asking about still applies. I am especially wondering about the shoulder over foot stuff.

The whole spine shifting, swinging, and rotating makes everything so much more complicated than I really thought the throw was going to be, even a few months ago.
Yes prepping to catch yourself. Not sure what you mean about tilted more forward.

That is my flatish position I guess you would say. There is no such thing as flat. That is similar to throwing my putter straight on slight hyzer.

When you swing with a sledgehammer, you let it and the arm swing back past your body as your body braces for the tug of the hammer swinging away and body turns/clears out of the way. Should be the same feeling with a disc.

Standstill... I'm not thinking about my rear shoulder in backswing, it's just out of the way. The front shoulder should feel like it rotates back over rear foot. Coming back forward both shoulders should feel like they rotate right over the front foot, just like in end of Swivel Chair Drill, and standing upright this is closer to actual. Door Frame drill exaggerates the backswing and shoulder back.

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  #767  
Old 07-16-2018, 01:08 PM
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To me with the door frame drill, you are too parallel and not able to turn into the pelvis. The door frame should help pull you into more of a reachback/load, and gravity should go hand in hand with the rear leg pressure.
Yup, it's something I've noticed in my swing since I've been throwing farther. My pelvis doesn't seem to want to rotate with the reach back. You talk a lot about that late deep reach back, and how it turns the plant heel more upwards to catch yourself toe-heel. This is tied into my mostly flat footed plant. I've been concentrating so much on keeping the spine upright and balanced, that I'm probably getting stiff in the lower spine and not allowing it to swivel back with the reach back (these are all guesses on my part).
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  #768  
Old 07-16-2018, 03:49 PM
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it looks like I'm starting too far from the door frame (you tell me, though.
Looks like your rear foot is too close to the door frame. Keep inching the rear foot targetward while holding the door frame and really turn your hips/shoulders back. You should find a comfortable position where you could just hang there forever so your butt is leveraged forward from rear foot and arm is loose and pulled taut. Play around with moving the rear foot around and different angles.

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I wanted to throw one more in here of a behind view of me doing my current course form with the hop. I am trying to focus on getting more of that "tug of war" feeling, and keeping my eyes on the target, but I don't think I'll ever be able to incorporate a pump. It just messes with my timing too much. I do think this style with the hop helps me stay closed into the hit, but I still need to get that front leg under control and learn how to turn back into the swing and lead with the body a la the Hershyzer.
I'd argue that the pump messing with your timing(really sequence) is a good thing. Get a sledgehammer and go through the x-step with it. The pump makes it 100x easier to get through the x-step with the sledgehammer. You are trying to time your swing to your feet instead of sequencing your feet to your swing.

Your eyes should be watching your thumb/disc/swing, not the target. This is also why a full pre-swing helps with accuracy, because I'm lining up the disc/thumb to the target and looking down the barrel to the hit before starting the backswing. The backswing should always be able to reverse right back to that pre-swing hit point like hitting a nail with a hammer.
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  #769  
Old 07-17-2018, 03:09 PM
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I'm trying to fucus on getting the hips turned back more, and attempting to lead with the weight of my butt (not as successful.) I also did some x-steps with a sledge, and I could get a nice connected feeling with the disc up high with no pump if I heald the head of the hammer like a loaf of bread with the off hand and let it go into the backswing as my upward momentum from the hop allowed me to turn back against it and have a good connection with the hammer into the plant and weight shift. I'm trying to replicate it here, but it still needs work. Don't mind the wonky off arm, it's the first thing to go when I start working on other things.

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  #770  
Old 07-17-2018, 05:02 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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I think the shin/foot is reaching out way ahead of the leg and therefore torso/body weight. It also seems like you're getting to the deepest load into rear hip while the foot is still not even toe-down touching. The torso seems to rotate forward at the same time as hips rather than a weight shift/ground up sequence...not that you're intentionally going to try to lag it. It also seems like you're not getting fully onto the front leg, you step back after the throw and the upper spine by neck on follow through gets pulled to the right rather than the entire spine pivoting/swinging smoothly, countered by the rear leg in balance.

Maybe try one step throws with a short stride, concentrating on loading the rear hip with a rise, and dropping onto the plant leg in a way that feels downward and ending up on top of it.
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