#91  
Old 08-10-2022, 03:01 PM
dmoore1998 dmoore1998 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
Although the PGA does impose outside time restrictions to prevent slow play, ball golfers in general are actually responsible for calling penalties on themselves. The primary responsibility for playing within the rules rests on the players themselves. Every player is responsible for their own card, their own score. The culture of that sport allows this to work. Yes, you do have various controversies that occur, but generally this works well.

These things can be done.
They "can" be, but the PDGA specifically has some things which make calling a penalty on yourself difficult. It's also important to note that PGA players aren't responsible for calling penalties on other people on their cards. The penalties that PGA players need to call on themselves are typically rather easily observable (absent some of the "I don't know if my ball shifted or not" stuff).

Specifically 2 things which would seem to be quite difficult to call on oneself:

1. Foot-fault. Difficult to take a full run-up, and throw, while also explicitly looking down at your foot to make sure you hit the allowed area.

2. Timing. Trying to line up your shot and take it while also keeping an eye to a clock that you're also holding, or is visible enough for you to see it, and looking at it specifically as the disc leaves your hand just to make sure in case it is close.

There may be others, but those 2 jump out as things which are simply difficult to call on yourself logistically. That's assuming we ignore the "you need someone to second the penalty" aspect. I think PDGA players could handle calling similar self-penalties that PGA players do...it's the 2 mentioned above that cause issues in my mind.
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  #92  
Old 08-10-2022, 03:51 PM
Shallows Shallows is offline
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Originally Posted by nothinbuttree View Post
Money will cause the solution to any time of play problems. Because where the money is, there the power to affect change (if needed) will be also. Again, where is the money in this sport? DGN/DGPT? Disc companies? Players? PDGA? Youtube post production companies--Jomez, etc? Other non-disc sponsors? Some of those choices of course are not really in the mix, but at some point, as the money coming into the sport, and being paid to players via sponsorships and winnings keeps increasing (and I think it will cause disc golf rocks), someone with power will start bellyaching over the issue.

Changes won't happen because we on this forum think they need to, but because it is directly affecting someone's bottom line. Like it or not, so many things in life are all about the benjamins.
That’s why all the other professional sports games conclude in such efficient and thoughtfully timed fashion.
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  #93  
Old 08-10-2022, 05:05 PM
Rastnav Rastnav is online now
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Originally Posted by dmoore1998 View Post
They "can" be, but the PDGA specifically has some things which make calling a penalty on yourself difficult. It's also important to note that PGA players aren't responsible for calling penalties on other people on their cards. The penalties that PGA players need to call on themselves are typically rather easily observable (absent some of the "I don't know if my ball shifted or not" stuff).

Specifically 2 things which would seem to be quite difficult to call on oneself:

1. Foot-fault. Difficult to take a full run-up, and throw, while also explicitly looking down at your foot to make sure you hit the allowed area.

2. Timing. Trying to line up your shot and take it while also keeping an eye to a clock that you're also holding, or is visible enough for you to see it, and looking at it specifically as the disc leaves your hand just to make sure in case it is close.

There may be others, but those 2 jump out as things which are simply difficult to call on yourself logistically. That's assuming we ignore the "you need someone to second the penalty" aspect. I think PDGA players could handle calling similar self-penalties that PGA players do...it's the 2 mentioned above that cause issues in my mind.
My point wasn't that the PDGA should move to making penalties completely self-enforced, but rather to point out that the nearest "relative" to disc golf has rules that are not primarily enforced by an outside official. People take this so seriously that pro players have called penalties on themselves for accidentally knocking accumulated water off of leaves when executing a back swing.

Outside enforcement is not the only option. It is a possibility that the DGPT could convince the current touring pros that time issues are enough of a problem that they need to do a better job at holding each other to task.

Now, the fact that ball golf had to move to outside penalties for time violations argues against this, but then ball golf doesn't have primary responsibility resting on fellow competitors. I do think that the rule needs to be clearer so that the line between "this is a difficult situation and requires more time" and "it's a lie in the fairway take your shot already" is more obvious. Also, so long as you are keeping up with the card ahead of you, and the first card out is playing at an acceptable pace, I don't really see any benefit to time rulings. Situations where some card is 5 holes behind (like this past tournament) are where the issue really starts to come to a head.

It would be far, far better to not go to outside monitoring as a primary source of violations, otherwise the DGPT will be effectively playing by a different ruleset than all other tournaments. There simply is not enough money in the sport to allow the local C tier to hire 18+ hole monitors to ref the entire tournament. The people who would do it would rather be playing (and that brings up the issue that these officials are still likely to be your fellow competitors at other times.)

As a side note, you can absolutely point out someone else's violations in ball golf. It's then on the other player to take the right course of action and fill out a correct scorecard, or they risk DQ when you take the issue to the tournament committee.
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  #94  
Old 08-11-2022, 08:43 AM
dmoore1998 dmoore1998 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
My point wasn't that the PDGA should move to making penalties completely self-enforced, but rather to point out that the nearest "relative" to disc golf has rules that are not primarily enforced by an outside official. People take this so seriously that pro players have called penalties on themselves for accidentally knocking accumulated water off of leaves when executing a back swing.

Outside enforcement is not the only option. It is a possibility that the DGPT could convince the current touring pros that time issues are enough of a problem that they need to do a better job at holding each other to task.

Now, the fact that ball golf had to move to outside penalties for time violations argues against this, but then ball golf doesn't have primary responsibility resting on fellow competitors. I do think that the rule needs to be clearer so that the line between "this is a difficult situation and requires more time" and "it's a lie in the fairway take your shot already" is more obvious. Also, so long as you are keeping up with the card ahead of you, and the first card out is playing at an acceptable pace, I don't really see any benefit to time rulings. Situations where some card is 5 holes behind (like this past tournament) are where the issue really starts to come to a head.

It would be far, far better to not go to outside monitoring as a primary source of violations, otherwise the DGPT will be effectively playing by a different ruleset than all other tournaments. There simply is not enough money in the sport to allow the local C tier to hire 18+ hole monitors to ref the entire tournament. The people who would do it would rather be playing (and that brings up the issue that these officials are still likely to be your fellow competitors at other times.)

As a side note, you can absolutely point out someone else's violations in ball golf. It's then on the other player to take the right course of action and fill out a correct scorecard, or they risk DQ when you take the issue to the tournament committee.
I would argue you absolutely CAN have the DGPT play by a different rule set than all other tournaments. That's what pretty much all professional sports have. They have their own set of rules and guidelines for that league/tour.
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