#11  
Old 12-10-2019, 01:28 PM
ToddL ToddL is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Should we build in to the rules a specific ban on taking Optional Relief from the Tee? A DZ? Both?
Tees and DZs are specifically and precisely placed by the course designer or TD. Optional relief is used when you're bad enough to throw a disc where you shouldn't have. It seems to me like there's enough of a difference here to count for something. If the TD placed the drop zone in a location that prevents you from throwing a certain line, then you shouldn't be allowed to pick a new spot and redesign the course for yourself.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
How does everyone think LOP should be defined for teeing areas?

Should we build in to the rules a specific ban on taking Optional Relief from the Tee? A DZ? Both?

I think there should NOT be a specific ban on taking Optional relief from a tee or any type of Drop Zone.

Define LOP for Tee area.

Is this a trick question?

If the tee is a 4 foot wide constructed pad, I would say line of play is 4 feet wide extending back in straight lines from the sides of the constructed tee pad. That seems like an easy call.

However...

What if the tee pad "points" in a direction other than the current fairway/taget placement?

What if the tee is poorly marked or defined?
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:29 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Has anyone ever in the history of the game taken Optional Relief from a tee pad or DZ? Or wanted to?
Sarah Hokom took relief directly behind a tee pad at Worlds this year. I don't believe she was specifically trying to take Optional Relief since she did not assess herself a penalty in the moment. So instead, she was saddled with a 2-throw misplay penalty for not playing from the designated tee area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Should we build in to the rules a specific ban on taking Optional Relief from the Tee? A DZ? Both?
I'm not in favor of adding such a ban. I'd be in favor of exploring the creation of a definition for line of play that can be applied to a tee/DZ.


That said, other than for safety concerns, I've yet to encounter a tee pad or drop zone on any course I've played where taking relief (with or without a penalty) would be advantageous to the player. And if it is a safety issue, the TD has the authority to address those concerns without need of rules or rules changes. For that reason, I don't know that addressing it should necessarily be a high priority for the RC.
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:31 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discette View Post
I think there should NOT be a specific ban on taking Optional relief from a tee or any type of Drop Zone.

Define LOP for Tee area.

Is this a trick question?

If the tee is a 4 foot wide constructed pad, I would say line of play is 4 feet wide extending back in straight lines from the sides of the constructed tee pad. That seems like an easy call.

However...

What if the tee pad "points" in a direction other than the current fairway/taget placement?

What if the tee is poorly marked or defined?
A line by definition has no width. So...sort of a trick question.

I would prefer optional relief to be disallowed in the case of tees/drop zones.
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  #15  
Old 12-10-2019, 03:54 PM
ToddL ToddL is online now
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
I liked the idea (while it lasted) that the 'line of play' concept only applied to marked lies. It helped delineate two conceptually different types of lies. The course designer/TD designated lie: teepad or drop zone, that is at a fixed predetermined location that cannot be altered, and is part of the course design.

And then the player created lie: the thrown disc/marker lie, created anew each time by the players throw, and then possibly modified by various rules.

Any rule committee member know whether this distinction has been intentional?

QA-OBS-7 blurs the difference, and I would say clearly opens the door to allowing optional relief being applied to drop zones and tee pads.
Does the QA blur the difference between the two scenarios or provide a specific exception?

You could read the QA as saying "typically there's no LOP for a tee/DZ, but in the case of a casual obstacle being on the tee, you can invent some half-cocked LOP and take casual relief at the first available spot behind the obstacle" without universally applying that interpretation to all circumstances involving a tee/DZ.
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Old 12-10-2019, 05:13 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
Does the QA blur the difference between the two scenarios or provide a specific exception?
I think an exception to an otherwise universal rule has to be clearly specified as such.

You have to use language such as "... You can never do XXX except when YYY..."

An actual example from the rules: "...A player who takes relief other than as allowed above receives one penalty throw."

Without clearly labelling it as an exception, a reader has no direction to treat it as anything other than a general principle.

And the idea that 'LOP only applies to marked lies', is not obvious in the first place.


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Old 12-10-2019, 05:35 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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In 2 different cases (that I can quickly recall), I've played from DZs where if I could've, I'd have opted to play from "the line of play" behind the DZ. In both cases I'd have preferred to have had a slightly longer / less "anhy" putt than the one I had (considering there was a big 'ol tree off the starboard bow of the DZ).
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  #18  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:22 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The phrase "at any time" (in the Optional Relief rule) is pretty strong and has no reason to be there other than to reinforce that it is always an option.* I'd say this makes Optional Relief from a tee pad OK.
Good point.


Quote:
Has anyone ever in the history of the game taken Optional Relief from a tee pad or DZ?* Or wanted to?
Came up on Reddit recently, someone wanted to know their options when playing from a super muddy and slippy DZ after going OB. They were a*newbie, and their buddy didn't let them retee instead. A commenter mentioned they could take*free optional relief from the DZ.*


Quote:
I do think there is a gap in the rules as to what the "Line of Play" is when the lie is a teeing area or teeing-area like DZ.* In a tournament, I would invoke 801.01 A. "If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness."
Feels like the correct approach. Especially with QA-OBS-7 in play.


Quote:
So, what would produce a LOP which is the closest to what "center of the marked disc" would produce?
I'd say from the target*to the mid point of the tee line. As the tee line seems to be (almost) the bare minimum needed to define a teeing area.*And it makes the*teepad analogous to the 20x30cm lie being placed directly behind the marker.

That or,*perpendicular*to mid point of tee line.


Quote:
802.04 Teeing Off

A.*Play begins on each hole with the player throwing from within the hole's teeing area. A*teeing area, or*tee, is the area bounded by the edges of a tee pad, if provided. Otherwise, it is the area extending three meters perpendicularly behind the designated tee line. The*tee line*is the line at the front of the teeing area, or the line between the outside edges of two tee markers.
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  #19  
Old 12-11-2019, 08:33 PM
Steve West Steve West is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discette View Post
...
If the tee is a 4 foot wide constructed pad, I would say line of play is 4 feet wide extending back in straight lines from the sides of the constructed tee pad. That seems like an easy call.
I'll add that to the list. Are you thinking the rule would allow the player to place the mini anywhere within that 4 foot wide lane? Or would this be essentially an infinitely long tee pad?
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  #20  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Yes, you can take additional relief on the LOP back from the DZ.
"803.02 E No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.".
Does the two meter rule need to be in effect in order to take free optional relief?
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