pierce falling putt

[dmoore1998]

Originally Posted by coupe

So instead she calls everyone else on her card cheaters.

Real nice.

She didn't call them cheaters, but she pointed out they should have gotten warnings...which is 100% true. The cardmates are in charge of monitoring to see if rules violations were made and when she asked them about the violation they pretty much all shrugged and said they didn't see.

[dmoore1998]

Originally Posted by Nick Pacific

Learn something new here all the time, thank you. Even Paige didn't know that!

I'm not sure Paige didn't know that. All subsequent conversations seemed to be about whether the tree was behind her lie or not. Which is really the crux of the issue.

[BillFleming]

Originally Posted by dmoore1998

She didn't call them cheaters, but she pointed out they should have gotten warnings...which is 100% true. The cardmates are in charge of monitoring to see if rules violations were made and when she asked them about the violation they pretty much all shrugged and said they didn't see.

I agree, but we see it way too often. Watch any tournament as a player is putting and see how many cardmates turn their backs to the player. Yet....801.02,A Enforcement says (bolded by me for emphasis)

Players are assigned to play holes together in a group for the purpose of verifying scores and ensuring play in accordance with the rules. Any determination made by the group as a whole is to be made by a majority of the group.

If you aren't watching, or you turn your back on the thrower, you aren't "...ensuring play in accordance with the rules." Some people will argue you can't always watch a player. But why not? You are supposed to wait your turn and your turn doesn't begin until you arrive at and determine your lie. So you CAN watch a player in the woods, etc. and ensure the rules are being met, and then go to your lie. You CAN watch a player putting, ensure the rules are being met, and then go to your lie.

For the cardmates who told Paige they didn't see it.....were they not watching? Or did they not see a penalty? Two different things, but I'd bet it was the first....not watching.

This is an issue I have with the pros....they don't follow/enforce the rules. And then amateurs, casual players see what the pros do and copy them. I played in a tournament and had a cardmate say he didn't need to use a marker...the pros don't. I had to tell him that the pros DO use a mini marker, it's just not always visible on camera and sometimes the camera isn't on them when they place their marker. He wasn't happy with me....but he used a marker after that.

[dmoore1998]

Originally Posted by BillFleming

I agree, but we see it way too often. Watch any tournament as a player is putting and see how many cardmates turn their backs to the player. Yet....801.02,A Enforcement says (bolded by me for emphasis)



If you aren't watching, or you turn your back on the thrower, you aren't "...ensuring play in accordance with the rules." Some people will argue you can't always watch a player. But why not? You are supposed to wait your turn and your turn doesn't begin until you arrive at and determine your lie. So you CAN watch a player in the woods, etc. and ensure the rules are being met, and then go to your lie. You CAN watch a player putting, ensure the rules are being met, and then go to your lie.

For the cardmates who told Paige they didn't see it.....were they not watching? Or did they not see a penalty? Two different things, but I'd bet it was the first....not watching.

This is an issue I have with the pros....they don't follow/enforce the rules. And then amateurs, casual players see what the pros do and copy them. I played in a tournament and had a cardmate say he didn't need to use a marker...the pros don't. I had to tell him that the pros DO use a mini marker, it's just not always visible on camera and sometimes the camera isn't on them when they place their marker. He wasn't happy with me....but he used a marker after that.

The one point in defense of the others are the card...I believe one of them noted "I was watching your feet"...which I kind of think is fine. Their inability to know she was about to grab a tree after she threw and knowing precisely if that tree was in front of her lie or not is pretty hard to consider. It wasn't like she was holding the tree as she lined up her putt.

But to your larger point...yes...very accurate. I can't count the number of times I've heard a pro talk about "Hoping someone in the woods didn't move a tree out of the way or hope they're actually standing where their disc is" and it's always "what are we gonna do? Go into the woods with them?" You're supposed to! Now I still don't think having players be officials is a good idea...but it seems like most pros simply view it as "I'm going to refuse to do it because I don't think anyone will actually make me do it".

[BillFleming]

Originally Posted by dmoore1998

The one point in defense of the others are the card...I believe one of them noted "I was watching your feet"...which I kind of think is fine. Their inability to know she was about to grab a tree after she threw and knowing precisely if that tree was in front of her lie or not is pretty hard to consider. It wasn't like she was holding the tree as she lined up her putt.

But to your larger point...yes...very accurate. I can't count the number of times I've heard a pro talk about "Hoping someone in the woods didn't move a tree out of the way or hope they're actually standing where their disc is" and it's always "what are we gonna do? Go into the woods with them?" You're supposed to! Now I still don't think having players be officials is a good idea...but it seems like most pros simply view it as "I'm going to refuse to do it because I don't think anyone will actually make me do it".

I agree with the bolded part, but we don't have enough Certified Officials to follow every group at every tournament, much less every Major. And the last line of your comment does seem to be the issue....too many don't want the confrontation and are willing to overlook rules violations (like time ones). Although, there are some rules that are really difficult to call....jump/step putting....did the player release BEFORE the foot landed in front of their lie? It's usually too close to call - which is why I wish the PDGA would get rid of the rule allowing it. If something is so hard to catch that you really need replay, it should be eliminated.