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Old 06-07-2018, 07:03 PM
JPM13 JPM13 is offline
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Default First Form Check

Hello Everyone,

First of all, I want to thank all the people on here that help with diagnosing form issues and providing instructional video. It has already helped me immensely.

I am currently at the 350' plateau that people have written about quite a bit on this site. I am particularly having some issues with 'nose up' releases. I would love for those who know much more than me to provide some pointers to get me going in the right direction.

Unfortunately, I do not have any behind perspective video. I will shoot some of that tomorrow. Below is normal speed and 25% normal speed side-view. Thanks in advance for taking a look.


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  #2  
Old 06-07-2018, 07:18 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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For nose up make sure that your grip alignment is good. Rotate the disc down in your palm until it is nose down of the middle of your forearm line. Experiment a little, everyone's finger lengths make different placements more or less comfortable, but make sure it is aligned nose down. http://www2.fmovies.sc/watch/miami-v...06-online.html

You are opening up in the "horse stance" so your front foot plants open. You are also shifting from in front, sending your rear hip to the left of your brace leg and toward the target open. This makes it impossible to turn back later and load later into the rear hip before planting, and to counterbalance your weight during the swing. It's why you are reaching back early, and tipping forward after release.

The throw will feel very different when you set up "from behind", and the throw will feel much more delayed rather than now, where you likely are anticipating the forward throw motion the whole time.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=127477

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Old 06-07-2018, 11:51 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Agree with SP, would probably start with Door Frame Drills, although pretty much all the drills linked below should help. Need to extend your arm/disc straight back away from your center in the backswing and keep turning your body/shoulders further back into the plant. You are curling the arm/disc up and essentially have zero backswing and are rounding and accelerating the disc forward too early before your weight has left the rear foot. It's going to feel weird and very wide at first.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=119328
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:42 AM
JPM13 JPM13 is offline
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Thanks for taking a look Slowplastic and Sidewinder.

While Miami Vice is a cool movie, I don't think you meant to link that to me.
Quote:
Experiment a little, everyone's finger lengths make different placements more or less comfortable, but make sure it is aligned nose down. http://www2.fmovies.sc/watch/miami-v...06-online.html
Slowplastic, I think I understand what you mean about that horse stance stuff. I need to keep my hips closed while I am pushing off my back foot into the the final plant and brace. This will allow me to uncork and transfer all that linear and rotational momentum into the disc.

Sidewinder, I am glad I finally filmed myself because I had no idea my arm wasn't straight on the pullback, but upon review it is immediately apparent. It seems, in general, I need to wait longer to uncork and just take my time.

Thanks again guys. I look forward to working on this stuff.
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:17 PM
JPM13 JPM13 is offline
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Thanks slowplastic. That horse stance observation makes a lot of sense. Same goes for the post you linked me.

sidewinder, your videos are awesome. I think they have helped me quite a bit.

I will work on the things you guys prescribed and report back when I see some progress.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:24 PM
JPM13 JPM13 is offline
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Default Form Check: Update

Update on my form. While it has improved a tiny bit, there is still a ton left to fix. Below is me throwing mid ranges from a standstill. I have also included my takeaways. Would love to hear yours. Thanks guys!



Observations

Things that are better:
  • My front hip is less open than it used to be. Not sure if i should close it more.
  • Balance seems to be better. Not as much variation in shoulder plane.
  • Backswing is more appropriately timed, but still a little early I think.

Things that are bad:
  • I think I may still be starting my forward arm swing too early still, but I am not sure.
  • Arm hitch. When I start the front swing, I have this odd hitch where my forearm ends up above the elbow and upperarm. SW22 noticed it, but I have no idea why that is happening, nor can I feel it happen. Going to need to do some research.
  • I should probably keep my arm wider all the way through the shot, but I am not totally sure.
  • Not really sure where I am with the brace progression, but I see that my back hip is still trying to swing around the brace leg, instead of staying behind it through the disc release. I wonder if this is because my front shoulder is opening up too soon, causing my hips to follow the shoulders? Slowplastic, also mentioned I am shifting from in front. I don't think I am grasping that concept. I will have to look into it again.
  • Finally, with all my fairway drivers, except my roadrunner, every throw is seemingly on a pretty dramatic hyzer line. I can't figure out why this is happening. I suspect it is probably because I am not getting enough on the disc or I am releasing the disc on hyzer line unintentionally. But, I really have no idea.

Things I have observed from other people's form.
  • There is a much more violent forward hip explosion inherent in good player's form. I realize that is where the plant foot pivot comes from. I suspect I am being too hesitant with my hip explosion. I think I fear messing up my timing and balance if i bring the hips through too hard. I could be real off base though. I will try it out tomorrow.
  • I am completely lost on the arm pull through. I have heard Eagle refer to it as elbowing a door to escape a fire. I heard Garrett Gurthie refer to it as starting a lawn mower. Both of those metaphors invoke a clear image in my head. However, a lot of other things I have read seem to suggest think less about the arm and more about the hips and shoulders. Should my arm be completely loose on the forward swing? Should I be making a conscious effort to pull, not push, the elbow through?
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:43 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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So what I'm seeing is you're still shifting in front, as you said. I'll try to explain a little better as well. But what is happening is you are starting in line with the target, then lift your front leg and step across your body. You then are pushing your momentum right through where this brace is landing and getting jammed up. That's why you're not following through all the way, and over some throws you may end up with a sore plant knee and even groin or hip.

Imagine an axis that your body will rotate on, it moves with your body and is through your body. Through your body means some mass is on one side, some is on the other. Your throwing arm is on on side of this axis, and your rear leg and butt is on the other side. Essentially what has to happen is you will load farther back into your rear hip, leverage your weight to the plant leg and the plant leg will catch the weight to set the axis. The rear leg will have left the ground and will counterbalance you to provide leverage behind your body as your arm swings forward. The axis will be pivoting during the throw essentially so it's pretty hard to describe an exact instant of what is happening...but just that the counterbalance will keep you upright on the plant leg and from falling forward or stepping forward. This lets you swing in a way that feels unimpeded but also not like you're going to fly off the front of the teepad.

When you shift from "in front", that means that all of your weight is going to one side of this axis, for RHBH to the left of your plant foot and toward the target. Since there is no mass on the other side of the axis, you end up just stepping through the throw and there is no counterweight to provide continual leverage to swing from...as fast as your arm starts moving is all you'll have. By setting up your lower body to turn back deeper and transfer your spine "from behind you", your left side ends up on the other side of the axis.

Right now it looks like you are changing your plant by stepping to the side, so even though you are going to shift in front you re-set the axis/plant down in the middle of where you're going to rotate. But since you are set up to rotate around to the side of the axis rather than in balance with weight from behind, you just end up getting blocked/jammed by this new plant placement.

I would still do the door frame drill, especially the first one to feel how to turn deeper into the backswing and how to leverage into the rear leg. Everything should be kind of equal and opposite...so just as you plant in the forward swing on the right leg you should be planted into the rear leg in the backswing to really leverage the backswing. Obviously this isn't the same feel when you go to an X-step. But in the door frame drill you should feel solid loading and how to leverage yourself with your body mass.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:48 PM
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You aren't turning back nearly enough into the Door Frame Drill into a tug of war of position/starting lawn mower. It should feel quite different hanging from the Door Frame with your butt/weight leading and shoulder/hip pulled back with arm loose but taut. You need to pretend the disc is as heavy as the door frame or a sledgehammer. You are starting swinging before your front foot plants and your rear foot is weight back during the swing. Your front leg also collapses into the plant instead of crushing the can and then swinging. You are swinging before any crushing, your leg is being crushed/collapsing instead of the can.




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Old 06-29-2018, 08:28 PM
JPM13 JPM13 is offline
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Quote:
So what I'm seeing is you're still shifting in front, as you said. I'll try to explain a little better as well. But what is happening is you are starting in line with the target, then lift your front leg and step across your body. You then are pushing your momentum right through where this brace is landing and getting jammed up. That's why you're not following through all the way, and over some throws you may end up with a sore plant knee and even groin or hip.
Its amazing how quickly you guys respond. Thank you.

Okay, there is a lot here, so I am definitely going to have to reread your reply a bunch of times. One thing that resonated right away (I think) is your reference to stepping across my body. In the screenshot attached, you see a red and a blue arrow. I think what you are recommending is placing my plant foot more in the red arrow direction than the blue arrow direction correct?

Thanks again for the response.
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File Type: jpg shifting in front.jpg (22.3 KB, 9 views)
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:33 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPM13 View Post
Its amazing how quickly you guys respond. Thank you.

Okay, there is a lot here, so I am definitely going to have to reread your reply a bunch of times. One thing that resonated right away (I think) is your reference to stepping across my body. In the screenshot attached, you see a red and a blue arrow. I think what you are recommending is placing my plant foot more in the red arrow direction than the blue arrow direction correct?

Thanks again for the response.
I would start with your feet offset in the closed manner that you want to swing from. So roughly trace a line from rear foot's toes through front foot's heel. Then from there it's simple...stride targetwards. The offset will remain roughly the same, and your momentum carries you straight targetwards. Starting slightly closed should help you turn deeper in the door frame manner.

Right now it's too complicated, you start off parallel to the line you want to throw, then try to push your mass toward the line but step across your body. So your mass is going down the red line but foot along the blue line, and you're getting all crossed up.

The momentum direction during an X-step should feel very straight and in balance, there shouldn't be swaying at all. So in a standstill it should be even more simple. This is the point of standstills to me, it already exposes this step to the side without any additional forward momentum before the plant, so if you added an X-step in there then the cause of this issue would be even harder for you to find.
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