#71  
Old 03-07-2019, 04:39 PM
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Marmoset Marmoset is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanA View Post
...Does a disc from the same mold, and same plastic, but different weights result in a different PLH if all other factors are identical? And if so, does that have more of an impact on flight than the weight?
Short answer:
Nope.

Long answer:
In my experience, disc geometry (PLH is only one factor) has a heavier influence on disc flight. I threw all 150 class for 6-ish years. Putters, mids, drivers, everything 150g or less. I tend to throw a little further than the average golfer around these parts and I still couldn't turn my 150g Champ Firebird unless I was playing in a headwind. My 150g DX firebirds, however, were basically a beefy Teebird because the PLH was higher than the Champ's. Same mold, same weight, different geometry, different flight. That is the simple version of the story.

Worded differently, the same run variations you see at max weight are present in the lighter weights as well. I would need to run some tests to verify this... but I have seen no definitive correlation between disc weight and disc shape.

There are different ways of achieving different weights. Three of these ways are 1) weighting agents can be added to the plastic (I'll count the intentional addition of air bubbles as a weighting agent), 2) adjusting the amount of plastic packed into the mold, or 3) using a lighter blend of plastic. I can see the alteration of any of these variables affecting the final disc geometry. In addition to these variables, the ambient temperature, ambient humidity, mold temperature, pack pressure, hold duration, cooling configuration, etc etc etc can all affect the intended disc shape. There are so many variables that all weights of discs have significant run to run variations... or even variations within the run.

There are a few reasons I have seen for lighter discs trending towards less overstable compared to their overweight cousins.

1) easier to get up to and surpass the designed cruising speed. Because of the law of diminishing returns, it is increasingly harder to accelerate a disc 1 more mph. A 150 class disc is 14% lighter than a 175g disc but, as Slowplastic eloquently pointed out, is not 14% faster. If a 175g disc were thrown at 60 mph, then 14% faster would be 68.4 mph. This doesn't happen. They go a little faster, but not that much.

2) less weight = less inertia. In simple speak, lighter weights magnify form flaws. Slow mo footage shows that even the top pros have off-axis torque and dirt in their throws. It is common knowledge that heavy, overstable discs hide tons of flaws. Light, understable discs require the cleanest form a human can muster.

3) I strongly suspect that the lighter weights are partially accomplished from packing the mold less densely, at least in Innova's case. When I was buying 150 class, almost all my purchases were Innova because, at the time, no one else was really heavily into 150 class. So most of my experience here is with Innova. The Factory seconds I was seeing in 150g seemed to be more likely to have big bubbles in the plastic which made those sink marks. This can also happen to the heavies but it seemed like I saw it more often in the lighter weights. Packing the mold less densely could magnify this issue. Or it could be something else entirely. My observations were not very scientific. Anyway. Less dense plastic and overall less weight in the rim = less gyroscopic. Less gyroscopic means it should be more easily tweaked off-axis.

This is off the top of my head. Id need to sit down and plot all the data to arrive a well-reasoned and logical conclusion.
I hope this all makes sense. I wish I had more time to devote to researching this, but Im too busy making disc stamps and other DG related things.
Feel free to ask any questions; as you can tell, I like to talk hahaha
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  #72  
Old 03-07-2019, 08:29 PM
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zendragon zendragon is offline
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One interesting thing to note though, MVP discs seem to be less affected by weight change in stability than other manufacturers. In fact, most of my lighter weight discs with the same PLH, have been even more stable than their heavier counterparts. For instance, I have a 153 Crave, 165 Crave, and 172 Crave. The 165 is the most stable of them, but only barely more than the 153, which is a little more stable than the 172. The highest PLH is on the 172. I've experienced the same thing with Clashes too. Bought a 175 thinking it would be more stable than my 155. Compared PLH, the 155 is maybe a little higher, but not really noticeably so, yet it is much more stable.

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  #73  
Old 03-07-2019, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zendragon View Post
...MVP discs seem to be less affected by weight change in stability than other manufacturers...
Very interesting, thanks for mentioning that. I have a theory about that.
Before I say my theory, do you know how MVP achieves lighter weights? Do they lighten the core, the overmold, or both? I'll ask the same question in the MVP thread.
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  #74  
Old 03-07-2019, 11:16 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmoset View Post
Very interesting, thanks for mentioning that. I have a theory about that.
Before I say my theory, do you know how MVP achieves lighter weights? Do they lighten the core, the overmold, or both? I'll ask the same question in the MVP thread.
There was a recent post somewhere where someone weighed some MVP wings and cores, from cutting the discs up. Hopefully someone has the link...tried to find it briefly. But I think the core was the same weight no matter if it was 150's or 160's, the extra weight was the wing for the Fission which is bubbles discs. So that makes sense to me if:

-150's and 160's are both "Fission" style which is bubbles
-these discs then have same mass core, but 160's has heavier wing so is more overstable
-170's is normal construction, so the core has higher % of the weight than the 160's Fission
-so the 160's Fission acts more OS because it has more wing weight

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  #75  
Old 03-08-2019, 07:23 AM
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zendragon zendragon is offline
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Originally I heard they control it with the overmold, but that doesn't make as much sense to me if the weight distribution normals out at lighter weights. I will say, just by hand feel alone, my 172 Crave and 174 Clash feel a bit more thick in the center than their 155 counterparts.

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  #76  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:02 PM
Discgolfer48 Discgolfer48 is offline
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I tried throwing a couple of overstable discs (that I found) in a good wind and they were still overstable. I took a Dremel to the bottoms and sanded off a small amount. Now they work just fine.
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  #77  
Old 05-18-2019, 06:56 PM
Discgolfer48 Discgolfer48 is offline
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Since the pros have signature discs with their names on them, I assume they are custom tuned for them. So if you don't have the arm, then your screwed. I think I'll put my signature on the discs that I tuned for myself.
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