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Old 04-15-2019, 11:24 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Honestly Will's form is so pretty to watch but it also messed me up along the way. I tried to mimic his "long reachback". Bad times for a long time. We're all warning you because we've done that and had to fix it.

Also it'll be easier for us to tell you "the key" when we see why you're maxing at 200' on film
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:24 AM
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The key IMO is to throw/leverage the disc's weight forward away from you like a lever, stick, or hammer, rather than a circular ball or frisbee. If you are trying to spin the disc's weight or maximizing hand speed, you ain't going nowhere. Create enough leverage and head end speed on the disc(not hand) to warp it/elongate it into an oval or stick, so it's "heavy weight" is going targetward faster than your hand - sling it forward with efficient smash factor. The disc should get heavy and pull you into the followthru.

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Old 04-16-2019, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
The key IMO is to throw/leverage the disc's weight forward away from you like a lever, stick, or hammer, rather than a circular ball or frisbee. If you are trying to spin the disc's weight or maximizing hand speed, you ain't going nowhere.
This is all so true. What is bolded is the incorrect direction I assumed for the first many iterations of what I was trying to do.

As far as the weight/lag discussion from SuperWookie...try to feel like your forearm is heavy and lagged back naturally. But in a heavy way, not a whippy way.

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Old 04-16-2019, 03:18 PM
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Could be swooping your swing plane. Again, can't help until we see some footage.


Will is not reaching back, he's in full door-frame position, turned back through his hips. His arm is extended so that he can bring the disc into his center (power pocket) and then redirect it/accelerate it/toss it away from his center.

The reason we don't like the term "reachback" is because it's the source of bad, hard to break habits that most of us here had to or still have to fight through. Habits such as tipping the upper body back beyond the rear foot, or using the shoulder socket to alligator-arm the disc behind us and end up hugging ourselves - instead of turning through the hips and "leaving the disc behind" while gliding forward of it. I highly suggest you check out Sidewinder's door frame drills.

See here how will's frame is upright and his mass is between his feet. He's not reaching, he left the disc behind and unfolded his body forward of it.




Which is exactly why you should toss a hammer. Our brains and bodies have millions of years of evolution and instinct when it comes to using our mass to move and leverage weight. When you try to backhand pimp slap someone, do you think about swing planes or what your hips are doing, or do you just let it happen?

I really don't know about the wrist stuff... I'm also a student of form and am always trying to improve, just trying to share some things I've picked up along that way that would've saved me some struggles in the earlier stages.


So as far as nose angle goes, I definitely need to find some good videos and explanations of how exactly one is supposed to feel when throwing nose down. How am I supposed to do it, and what can I do to work on keeping it down. My grip is fine. I've read and looked at almost all the grip videos and articles on here and youtube. That's not the problem. I'm pretty sure my arm release is just going from medium low in the "backswing" and then on an angle up and around. So that my arm is more like a golf swing, not like a flat-ish Disc golf throw. So I DEFNITELY need to work on that and find videos and articles talking about how to keep that nose down and drills to work on it. As my grip is fine when I start the throw, but somehow the throw ends up NOT nose down, haha.

Then on to Will. Maybe we aren't using the same terminology, but Will has a HUGE reachback or backswing compared to most pros or Disc golfers. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say he doesn't. The photo I screen shot out of a video of his shows how far back his arm and disc is compared to his body. It's WAY back. Most disc golfers are aprox half of that. I guess it's personal preference based on your body, just like golf. John Daly and certain kids get a HUGE arc and their clubhead goes way past parallel at the top. And that isn't good or bad necessarily. It's all about what your body feels comfortable with and what gives each individual the most distance with accuracy in a repeatable manner. I was just wondering why Will and some other guys have such extreme backswings?

And something I've noticed about a large run up and X step compared to a short hop up or no step up throws is the hip turn. Like Seabass talks about in some of his videos. Hip turn in golf is much more preferred to hip slide backwards as the slide can lead to some other problems that make it hard to consistently repeat that swing over and over. I had that problem in golf. I always slid back more than my pro wanted me to, but ALSO with a big hip turn late. He just wanted me to turn. But I could never feel a good transfer of energy by just turning and torquing my body. So I said, screw that, I'm going to just become really good with my slide and turn, and I did. Now, I was never going to be a pro or have a STUPID repeatable swing. But it worked for me and allowed me to have fun and shot low scores and hit the ball a mile with ease pretty often. It was only when I started to get a little too fast in my swing that the slide hurt me.

So I notice in that throw from Will and a other pros, is that some of them seem to slide back with their body more and only turn their hips marginally in their backswing and others have much more turn in their hips in their backswing with less slide. Seabass has good hip turn but a much shorter reachback or backswing and virtually no slide, but throws incredible. So I don't think there is any right or wrong amount of backswing with the arm reaching back. It seems like personal preference and body type. Maybe Will and others feel that the extreme reach or backswing of their disc helps them throw farther? And others not so much? Tony Finau has an almost 3/4 backswing and consistently carries drives 300-320'!!! So the distance of the backswing or reachback is not proportional to how far you can hit the ball or throw a disc. It seems its more of a personal preference and body mechanics thing.

But that last part you spoke of brings something up that I think I see now when watching slomo of Will and others. You said, "he turns the hips and leaves the disc behind him." That is something I wanted to ask about. It seems like in some videos, that the player is reaching back WHILE his body is moving forward? Is that correct? And is that one of the keys to getting a big torque in your body to be able to throw faster? Like I said, I notice it much more in certain people's throws than others. But in that video of Will, he is almost violently moving his body forward WHILE his arm and disc sort of stay behind him and then it gets dragged or wiped through. Is that a correct assessment? And why do certain players do it more, and some almost none at all. Or seemingly none at all? I will continue to watch all of SW22/Seabass videos and try to get out to practice. It's tough with my schedule. I've got the gym 4 days a week, softball once a week, the gf, and work. It's like I never have time to do what I want But I'll keep trying to make time to get out there and put these ideas into practice. Thanks for your tips
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
Honestly Will's form is so pretty to watch but it also messed me up along the way. I tried to mimic his "long reachback". Bad times for a long time. We're all warning you because we've done that and had to fix it.

Also it'll be easier for us to tell you "the key" when we see why you're maxing at 200' on film

Agreed. Will was one of the first players I started watching videos of when I decided to start playing a few weeks ago and was like WOW! What is this guy doing with his body to throw this disc?! He gets the disc back SO far before he throws and always looks so in control though, even though his body is so contorted and to the max. That kid is flexible as heck!

So are you saying a long "reachback" like Will's or trying to mimic that is a really bad thing and I shouldn't even try?
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
The key IMO is to throw/leverage the disc's weight forward away from you like a lever, stick, or hammer, rather than a circular ball or frisbee. If you are trying to spin the disc's weight or maximizing hand speed, you ain't going nowhere. Create enough leverage and head end speed on the disc(not hand) to warp it/elongate it into an oval or stick, so it's "heavy weight" is going targetward faster than your hand - sling it forward with efficient smash factor. The disc should get heavy and pull you into the followthru.

Hmmm, I sort of understand what you are saying, just don't know how to do that, haha. I found this interesting picture on the internet a few days ago and was wondering if it was yours or if you've seen it? It looks sort of like how you're talking about with feeling the disc throughout the throw and feeling your body create the force, not your hand/arm/wrist. Especially with the hammer throw videos you've done. Is it a feeling of holding onto the outside of the disc, and because of all the forces adding up as the swing/throw progress, that eventually with the proper form, the disc starts to feel heavier and like it's wiping out of your hand? If you know about this photo, can you explain it more in detail and what all those different colors nad drawings are supposed to mean? I really really want to feel that, because as of right now, I never do. And I know what it will feel like when it happens from my golf, tennis and softball swing.

And like I said, I already had a hard time in golf, tennis and softball with feeling the head. So much in fact, that I actually added lots of heavy lead tape to the racquet on the perimeter to increase the swing weight, and same thing on a lot of my longer golf clubs. Same last year when I finally bought a softball bat. I ended up buying the heaviest bat with the heaviest swing weight I could find and it helps so much! I had swing weights on my golf clubs routinely in the D8 or higher levels sometimes into E!!! As that was the only way I could feel the lag in the club properly and really pound the sh#t out of the ball with less effort and smooth transitions.

So I'm really worried I'm never going to be able to feel that heaviness in this discs you are describing as they are just SOOO freaking light. I even bought the heaviest discs I could find when I buy discs so that I have the best chance of feeling the Disc.

What throwing drills with and without a disc in your opinion help the most with getting that feel of weight in the disc? That will probably be the key for me to really start unlocking the levels of distance!

Thanks

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Old 04-16-2019, 04:57 PM
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Hmmm, I sort of understand what you are saying, just don't know how to do that, haha. I found this interesting picture on the internet a few days ago and was wondering if it was yours or if you've seen it? It looks sort of like how you're talking about with feeling the disc throughout the throw and feeling your body create the force, not your hand/arm/wrist. Especially with the hammer throw videos you've done. Is it a feeling of holding onto the outside of the disc, and because of all the forces adding up as the swing/throw progress, that eventually with the proper form, the disc starts to feel heavier and like it's wiping out of your hand? If you know about this photo, can you explain it more in detail and what all those different colors nad drawings are supposed to mean? I really really want to feel that, because as of right now, I never do. And I know what it will feel like when it happens from my golf, tennis and softball swing.

And like I said, I already had a hard time in golf, tennis and softball with feeling the head. So much in fact, that I actually added lots of heavy lead tape to the racquet on the perimeter to increase the swing weight, and same thing on a lot of my longer golf clubs. Same last year when I finally bought a softball bat. I ended up buying the heaviest bat with the heaviest swing weight I could find and it helps so much! I had swing weights on my golf clubs routinely in the D8 or higher levels sometimes into E!!! As that was the only way I could feel the lag in the club properly and really pound the sh#t out of the ball with less effort and smooth transitions.

So I'm really worried I'm never going to be able to feel that heaviness in this discs you are describing as they are just SOOO freaking light. I even bought the heaviest discs I could find when I buy discs so that I have the best chance of feeling the Disc.

What throwing drills with and without a disc in your opinion help the most with getting that feel of weight in the disc? That will probably be the key for me to really start unlocking the levels of distance!

Thanks

I think you understand it. Mentally you just have to pretend the disc is heavy from the start. The photo is from DGR Combining Concepts thread. The green hammer is where Bradley Walker hypothesized the head/weight of the hammer in Snap 2009. The pink hammer is Blake_T's modification and is correct. It's easier to feel the hammer action with putters/mids especially if you invert the disc upside-down and have your thumb on the inside of the rim and feel the disc pivot around it with your fingers pushing it, then invert the disc normal and feel the same sling action.

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Old 04-16-2019, 11:50 PM
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So are you saying a long "reachback" like Will's or trying to mimic that is a really bad thing and I shouldn't even try?
I'll put it this way...not having a long reachback like that is not something that would prevent you from throwing 400+. For sure. But at the same time...always experiment and try different feelings until something clicks. Just do not try to mimic that as the only and best way.

The recent discussion is of feeling the weight of the disc, having be heavy, leveraging it, etc. That is FOR SURE the way it feels to get a huge and efficient acceleration. For me, trying to get the disc way back away from me was making me use my arm and also focus on getting the disc away, rather than keeping my arm "with me" and under control at all times.

What I've really learned is you need to be in balance and aware of your arm at all times. Not necessarily stiffly controlling the arm, but having it connected and in an intentional motion. So you can't just do something during the first step of the X-step, something during the backswing, and expect to get to the hit point/release well. Maybe you can do that miraculously. But the more control you have at all times, the more power and consistency you will have. I've recently been having more control and leverage of my arm during my FH shots in the backswing, and I'm overshooting my powered down shots significantly and unintentionally. It makes a huge difference even if it may not seem like it would.

Also since the disc is so light, make sure your arm feels like it has mass. Don't just focus on the disc/end point of the swing, make your arm the entire club/lever and control its swing.

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Old 04-17-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I think you understand it. Mentally you just have to pretend the disc is heavy from the start. The photo is from DGR Combining Concepts thread. The green hammer is where Bradley Walker hypothesized the head/weight of the hammer in Snap 2009. The pink hammer is Blake_T's modification and is correct. It's easier to feel the hammer action with putters/mids especially if you invert the disc upside-down and have your thumb on the inside of the rim and feel the disc pivot around it with your fingers pushing it, then invert the disc normal and feel the same sling action.
Ok, that makes more sense now that you explained that sort of confusing drawing. The Pink Hammer does seem to be more in line with what I was assuming what I should feel with a perfect throw. Now, I just need to find drills with the disc and without (your hammer throws for sure) to practice over and over until I can finally FEEL that heft in the edge of the disc and like it's slinging from my hand, and not me trying to sling it. That is THE KEY and will be hard I'm sure since these discs are so light. I will definitely try that inverted throwing with the putter/mids.

So to you, when you make a great throw, when the disc is spinning out of your hand from the force your body has created, does it feel more like the disc is spinning out of your fingers underneath, or your thumb on top, or both? And does it feel like the disc is spinning around your fingers/thumb, or just slipping out of them from the force?

Thanks
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Old 04-17-2019, 10:54 AM
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I'll put it this way...not having a long reachback like that is not something that would prevent you from throwing 400+. For sure. But at the same time...always experiment and try different feelings until something clicks. Just do not try to mimic that as the only and best way.

The recent discussion is of feeling the weight of the disc, having be heavy, leveraging it, etc. That is FOR SURE the way it feels to get a huge and efficient acceleration. For me, trying to get the disc way back away from me was making me use my arm and also focus on getting the disc away, rather than keeping my arm "with me" and under control at all times.

What I've really learned is you need to be in balance and aware of your arm at all times. Not necessarily stiffly controlling the arm, but having it connected and in an intentional motion. So you can't just do something during the first step of the X-step, something during the backswing, and expect to get to the hit point/release well. Maybe you can do that miraculously. But the more control you have at all times, the more power and consistency you will have. I've recently been having more control and leverage of my arm during my FH shots in the backswing, and I'm overshooting my powered down shots significantly and unintentionally. It makes a huge difference even if it may not seem like it would.

Also since the disc is so light, make sure your arm feels like it has mass. Don't just focus on the disc/end point of the swing, make your arm the entire club/lever and control its swing.

Yes, ok. I understand. Long reachback, medium reachback or short reachback in theory has no effect on how far you can throw? It's a personal preference, feel, body mechanics thing? Just like how I described with different golfers backswings? Right?


Once again, how does one practice or feel the arm as HEAVY and like it has a lot of mass? Are there any drills with a disc or without that you have used that really enforce that feeling? Of your arm feeling heavy and sort of loose, but still in control? I just saw this video in the HUGE list that you guys gave me to look through, and even though I haven't had a chance to watch the whole thing and with sound and then go practice it, it seems like it might be one of the drills to allow one to feel the arm being heavier and wiping through the zone? I will be watching this and many others with sound when I have time. So far I've gone through about 3-4 of SW22's videos from beginning to end and fully read some of the articles on this website about grip and distance that are a bit older from the mid late 2000's. But this video from I think HUB seems like a KEY video? It's the one I referenced earlier that just amazed me! This guy barely looks like he's doing much with his body or arm or the disc and easily tossing lazers 360-375 with a mid range disc! THAT is what I want!

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