#21  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:01 AM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.2
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,911
Niced 2,681 Times in 1,670 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
Ok, that makes more sense now that you explained that sort of confusing drawing. The Pink Hammer does seem to be more in line with what I was assuming what I should feel with a perfect throw. Now, I just need to find drills with the disc and without (your hammer throws for sure) to practice over and over until I can finally FEEL that heft in the edge of the disc and like it's slinging from my hand, and not me trying to sling it. That is THE KEY and will be hard I'm sure since these discs are so light. I will definitely try that inverted throwing with the putter/mids.

So to you, when you make a great throw, when the disc is spinning out of your hand from the force your body has created, does it feel more like the disc is spinning out of your fingers underneath, or your thumb on top, or both? And does it feel like the disc is spinning around your fingers/thumb, or just slipping out of them from the force?

Thanks
You should be slinging it forward at the very end with the wrist, just a compact motion. Definitely don't feel slipping unless it slipped early. I feel the disc springing off my fingers, I use a fan grip.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/f...6025bb917a35cd
Sponsored Links

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-17-2019, 11:39 AM
SuperWookie's Avatar
SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 185
Niced 18 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
You should be slinging it forward at the very end with the wrist, just a compact motion. Definitely don't feel slipping unless it slipped early. I feel the disc springing off my fingers, I use a fan grip.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/f...6025bb917a35cd
Gotcha!

I read that link and it all makes sense until this part: "your rip finger should not feel any "pull" by the disc. the rip finger should feel like it's "pushing" the disc. in those cases, your pivot has occurred correctly."

I don't understand how that could work at all! If I have a power grip, and my middle, ring and pinky fingers are "locked" onto the rim and lock fingers, and my index is slightly up or not locked down as far, making it the "rip finger" that the disc rips from, then how in the hell could I push with that finger? That makes NO sense. Do you feel this or understand this and can you explain it? I definitely feel the disc RIPPING from my index finger when I get a pretty good throw. At the end of my last field practice, my index finger was getting kind of raw, like I had just started playing guitar again or something, haha

And when you use a fan grip, is that for all shots? Or just anything in the mid or short distance? I thought with long range shots or drives, it should be a power grip so as not to slip out of your hand from the power you are producing?

And do you have any techniques or drills I can practice to work on the "nose down" disc angle everyone says I need to work on? I check my grip everytime I'm about to throw. I even put my thumb more on the edge of the rim and forward a bit as that is what the grip article said will give me a slightly more nose down angle. And yet every throw is nose up, weather I throw the disc with a low, medium or high launch angle. I can always see the top of the flight plate and watch it just peter out. That might be a HUGE part of the reason I'm not getting any distance right now, come to think of it!

Thanks again. I love these discussions on form and the back and fourth. I miss this from golf
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:08 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,233
Niced 2,566 Times in 1,636 Posts
Default

I think these motions are great for trying to feel the weight of the arm. Don't just control the hammer, but feel the entire arm connected to it. My favourite is the elephant walk at 4:40, since it really shows you when to step, weight the foot, THEN begin backswing or forward swing on that leg. If you can do this walking forward, then you just have to adjust the same feel to stepping sideways/laterally. Walking forward is easy balance in comparison, and has one less thing to think about when trying to feel the step then arm leverage.


Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:33 PM
SuperWookie's Avatar
SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 185
Niced 18 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
I think these motions are great for trying to feel the weight of the arm. Don't just control the hammer, but feel the entire arm connected to it. My favourite is the elephant walk at 4:40, since it really shows you when to step, weight the foot, THEN begin backswing or forward swing on that leg. If you can do this walking forward, then you just have to adjust the same feel to stepping sideways/laterally. Walking forward is easy balance in comparison, and has one less thing to think about when trying to feel the step then arm leverage.


Excellent! Thank you. I will take my hammer with me to the field tomorrow night and work on that stuff as well as with the discs! I'm excited
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:41 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,233
Niced 2,566 Times in 1,636 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
Excellent! Thank you. I will take my hammer with me to the field tomorrow night and work on that stuff as well as with the discs! I'm excited
The motions will be more slow and long feeling with the hammer...don't focus on distance or speed or anything. Just feel and leverage.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:30 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.2
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,911
Niced 2,681 Times in 1,670 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
Gotcha!

I read that link and it all makes sense until this part: "your rip finger should not feel any "pull" by the disc. the rip finger should feel like it's "pushing" the disc. in those cases, your pivot has occurred correctly."

I don't understand how that could work at all! If I have a power grip, and my middle, ring and pinky fingers are "locked" onto the rim and lock fingers, and my index is slightly up or not locked down as far, making it the "rip finger" that the disc rips from, then how in the hell could I push with that finger? That makes NO sense. Do you feel this or understand this and can you explain it? I definitely feel the disc RIPPING from my index finger when I get a pretty good throw. At the end of my last field practice, my index finger was getting kind of raw, like I had just started playing guitar again or something, haha

And when you use a fan grip, is that for all shots? Or just anything in the mid or short distance? I thought with long range shots or drives, it should be a power grip so as not to slip out of your hand from the power you are producing?

And do you have any techniques or drills I can practice to work on the "nose down" disc angle everyone says I need to work on? I check my grip everytime I'm about to throw. I even put my thumb more on the edge of the rim and forward a bit as that is what the grip article said will give me a slightly more nose down angle. And yet every throw is nose up, weather I throw the disc with a low, medium or high launch angle. I can always see the top of the flight plate and watch it just peter out. That might be a HUGE part of the reason I'm not getting any distance right now, come to think of it!

Thanks again. I love these discussions on form and the back and fourth. I miss this from golf
Might be a perception or subtle difference, but I feel like I push the disc forward with the index finger/all fingers. I'm not trying to pull the disc around the fingers, I'm pushing it out away from them. I focus more on pinching the flight plate rather than pulling into the rim. I know if I feel the disc pulling on the finger on the way out, then I lost control and likely slipping early or hooking late.

I use the fan grip for all shots. Lots of top pros do, some like Lizotte only switch to power grip for speed 12+ discs. There's a difference between you controlling the disc and applying force to it vs trying to hold on to the disc out of control and it ripping out hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsHetJkKFo&t=2m5s

If your grip is correct then your nose down or up issue is probably related to your body/balance/weightshift and throwing downward swing plane with nose up. Need to learn to throw upward with nose down, although if you are throwing putters less than 200' that really has nothing to with nose angle, but technique. When I went to work on my form I threw only my putters for a month or two, just focused on technique/form to throw them 300'. Putters care less about nose angle, but the better technique/weight forward and disc sling, the more nose down you will get.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-18-2019, 04:55 PM
SuperWookie's Avatar
SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 185
Niced 18 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Might be a perception or subtle difference, but I feel like I push the disc forward with the index finger/all fingers. I'm not trying to pull the disc around the fingers, I'm pushing it out away from them. I focus more on pinching the flight plate rather than pulling into the rim. I know if I feel the disc pulling on the finger on the way out, then I lost control and likely slipping early or hooking late.

I use the fan grip for all shots. Lots of top pros do, some like Lizotte only switch to power grip for speed 12+ discs. There's a difference between you controlling the disc and applying force to it vs trying to hold on to the disc out of control and it ripping out hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsHetJkKFo&t=2m5s

If your grip is correct then your nose down or up issue is probably related to your body/balance/weightshift and throwing downward swing plane with nose up. Need to learn to throw upward with nose down, although if you are throwing putters less than 200' that really has nothing to with nose angle, but technique. When I went to work on my form I threw only my putters for a month or two, just focused on technique/form to throw them 300'. Putters care less about nose angle, but the better technique/weight forward and disc sling, the more nose down you will get.

Ok, so I understand the pinching of the edge of the disc, but still have no idea how something that is flinging out of your hand away from you, could be pushed with fingers at the same time. That's just not making sense. The pinching is. I'll just keep working on trying different things and how it feels

Then as far as nose up issues, I can 100% tell you it's my arm coming from a low/mid reachback or backswing to a higher release point with a nose up release. I try not too, I guess I just have to keep working on it? It seems VERY unnatural to take the disc back medium or high and then throw flat across my chest (which is high) and straight through. It's very awkward and feels like there is no power to be had.

I know I don't throw with a downward arm angle ever. It's always up or at the very best, slightly above flat. And of course, somehow my nose angle is up to some degree or a lot with most throws. Not sure how I can work on keeping it down or flat? If a certain grip will help more, or it's just something I have to make a super concentrated effort on practicing while I throw? A lot of this technique seems really awkward, not natural and counter intuitive.

In general, my putter is actually usually one of the best discs for me throwing well. It doesn't go quite as far as some of the decent throws with the faster speed discs, but it's almost always straight and ends up near where I want. And same for my speed 12 Krait. It usually goes a bit further than all my other discs and fairly straight until the end where it fades pretty hard left, because it doesn't have enough speed. Going to try and get out tomorrow after work and toss the discs around, but the weather is horrible where I live lately. I had time yesterday but had a softball game (first pitch of the season for me and I went Right Center Yard! That was fun). And then most days lately when I am free it's rainy. But I'll get out soon and work on a few of these drills and especially the hammer stuff you have videos for!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-18-2019, 06:22 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,233
Niced 2,566 Times in 1,636 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
I know I don't throw with a downward arm angle ever. It's always up or at the very best, slightly above flat. And of course, somehow my nose angle is up to some degree or a lot with most throws. Not sure how I can work on keeping it down or flat? If a certain grip will help more, or it's just something I have to make a super concentrated effort on practicing while I throw? A lot of this technique seems really awkward, not natural and counter intuitive.
If you aren't fully getting onto the front leg in balance, then you may be stuck between the legs or on the back leg and that can cause your planes to tilt back/up...also it can affect your spine angle throughout the throw if your balance isn't proper during the entire swing. Getting onto the front leg and staying in balance and counterbalanced with the rear side allowing the arm to swing out can help keep your planes way more consistent.

A very typical issue, which you may not have though, is players are balanced along their rear leg and push their spine/shoulders forward to try to power the throw. The spine ends up tipping downward during the swing, so they usually throw on a downward angle with a nose up release to compensate. This causes the disc to air bounce in the most severe cases.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-18-2019, 07:23 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.2
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 14,911
Niced 2,681 Times in 1,670 Posts
Default

Take some video man! This is the only way to see what you are actually doing vs what you think or perceive you are doing, and hypothesizing 1000s of scenarios.

Grab a pen or pencil or stick and hold one end. Put your thumb on the backside of it to leverage it/push it/toss it away from your center. You aren't going to get very far if you are trying to pull the pen with the fingers rather than leveraging/pushing with the thumb, same thing with the disc. Your thumb should control/leverage/push the disc in a very similar fashion. Your thumb is the only thing on top of the disc trapping the disc in your hand.

Reply With Quote
 

  #30  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:56 AM
SuperWookie's Avatar
SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 185
Niced 18 Times in 14 Posts
Default

Ok, sorry about the delay. Was busy and didn't have any good days lately to go throw, but went out last night and made some progress! Also, I have no way to post video as of yet, so anyone telling me to do so is barking up the wrong tree. I'll post a video if or when I can get someone to come film me. I have NO way to get a decent video as of right now. So that's not an option right now.

First of all, it makes a NIGHT and DAY difference using that hard Champ plastic and the softer Star or similar plastic! Just like you or some others told me, the discs were easier to turn over, glide better, and just in general easier to throw straighter. I got a Lat64 Maul and Fuse in Gold Line plastic (basically like Star), a Star Mako3, and an MVP Tangent Neutron. All of them are so much easier to throw, and easier to throw straighter. Plus they glide better. So that was fun. And I didn't even throw a single disc over speed 7. I threw my Champ TL, Champ Leopard3, Buzzz, and Tui putter along with the 4 above.

Then I was working on ONLY throwing from a stand still. No hops or x steps. And I really worked on that feeling of "trying" to slowly build up the movement. Feet move, then my hips/ass shift forward and start to turn open. The upper body is behind me and dragging. The arm is lose and relaxed, same with the grip. Then pull the disc in towards my chest (which feels super weird) and then at the end try to accelerate and whip the disc out of my hand from my elbow extension. I threw a lot more decent to acceptable throws last night compared to the other 3 times I've been out. Much straighter throws in general, and all the discs going out to about 160-220' depending on how well I did everything. And it was a little easier to get to that distance than the times before. A few even sort of snapped out of my fingers. But confusingly, the discs still only go 160-220'.

I got about 10-15 throws that had a slight snap or whip like feeling in my arm and yet, all the discs still continue to only go in that 160-220 range I spent a good hour and a half out in the football field, and was very meticulous with my throws. I'd say about 50% of the throws were not good but also not horrific, 5 % were horrible, 5% were good, and 40% were better than last time, and decent improvement, but still not great. Still not sure how people can just casually toss a disc 300-350 with little to no effort or athletic ability and I'm barely throwing it 200 on a good throw with tons of speed and athletic ability in my body. It's SO frustrating. But I'll keep at it. Need to figure out the KEY to this and keep pushing until I feel it and do it. Once I get that one throw where it just sails 300-350' and fairly straight, I'll know what I need to do in order to continue doing it over and over again. And then adding distance to that won't be that hard.

As far as my grip goes, that is another place I made some more progress and I finally just started messing around with all sorts of grips to see what they produced.

So I ditched the power grip almost the entire evening. I went to a fan like grip for the first 5-10 mins and wasn't making much progress over my power grip. So then I just decided, what the hell, and gripped the disc with basically just two fingers and my thumb. And low and behold... I started throwing better!!! The discs started to feel a little more whippy in my hand and snapping more through the hitting zone. Like it was pinching out of my hand. And they started flying out a little lower and flatter with slightly less fade. Still not flat or straight, but just flatter and straighter than I've been throwing. So that was good. I've included photos of my two main grips at the bottom. My most comfortable version of a power grip and then the two finger grip I started using last night. It actually started getting so whippy that I was yanking some discs hard right or on a few occasions. With a few of the discs that turn over actually just went slightly right and then just kept turning more and more right. Like an anhyzer shot that started out straight or a little right. It was weird. And then a few of the throws were really weird. On about 5 throws total, I got a decent snap or pull through, and the disc started out straight or about 5' right of straight. It kept going right for a long time, and then right near the end sort of softly faded back left. Those ended up being my longest throws, but all of them ended up about 20-40' right of my intended target. It was like a soft S curve I read about or have seen, but nowhere near as far. Those are the throws that went about 200-220'. And the disc didn't matter! I threw all the discs once or twice this way. So it's not like one disc alone was doing this interesting S curve shot. And I couldn't do it on demand. It just accidentally happened on certain throws.

But, at least trying a new grip gave me a new sensation and feeling of some whip. And then on the very last field "pass" (I throw from the FG post in the end zone to the middle of the field and then back), I tried the power grip again, and it too felt more lose and floppy in my hand and had a slight spring in the throw. Not quite as good as the 2 finger, but better than it had been before. I had a couple pretty good throws on the last pass with the power grip! So that was good I guess. But I definitely feel like less fingers is better for the mid range discs. Just because of the shape of the rim. It's so awkward and thin and deep and not conducive to a power grip. I think only my speed 9 and above discs have a rim shape that is conducive to a power grip, which I prefer actually to any other grip. Although the fan grip feels comfortable and like I can control it, it actually isn't any better than the power grip for me, at this point. Looks like this weird 2 finger grip thing is working the best for now.

Obviously the grip alone is not enough to help me throw far and straight, and a few major things are still going wrong obviously, as I keep only getting around 150-200 foot throws even when it's a "good" throw. But I was sort of happy to see some sort of progress and just get outside to work on stuff. I feel like it's going to take forever to get this down right and have this feeling of heavy weight in my arm. With a bat, racquet or golf club, it's so easy to feel the head weight and build up the swing until you unleash the whip at the end and effortlessly crush the ball. With a disc, it feels close to impossible.

And still don't have a disc flight that EVER looks anything like the videos of members here or pros. It comes out on a higher initial trajectory every time, I can see the top of the flight plate a little or a lot (depending on how good or bad the throw was), and even on the best throws, it still fades at the end at least 10' if not more. It NEVER goes out dead straight, about 10-15' high, flat and with a nice soft landing that just barely fades. It never does that!

But progress is good, even though it's not even close to what I want. I just read this article on UniHyzerbomb's site HeavyDisc, and it was about this ex college hockey player who is 6'3" 225lbs and is now playing pro disc golf! He went from never playing to being a pro in like a year! He said it only took him about 3 months of field practice on his own to get over 300'. And now in about a year or less, he can throw over 700' on flat ground!!! He can out throw Simon by almost a 100'!!! Why the hell can't I even throw it 300, haha? This sport is SO frustrating.

2 Finger Grip
Attached Images
File Type: jpg disc6.jpg (48.3 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg disc7.jpg (47.1 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg disc5.jpg (37.1 KB, 17 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
drk_evns Backhand Form Thread drk_evns Form Analysis/Critique 101 09-18-2019 04:37 PM
Dazey's form thread Jet57 Form Analysis/Critique 2 02-19-2019 01:13 PM
drk_evns Backhand Form Thread drk_evns Form Analysis/Critique 3 10-27-2018 01:34 PM
anonyduce form improvement thread anonyduce Form Analysis/Critique 1 08-28-2018 07:24 PM
The ol' critique my form thread Hfactor Form Analysis/Critique 2 04-22-2013 07:47 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.