#71  
Old 07-17-2017, 06:54 PM
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After looking through some of this, a point of clarification. The growth in athletic ability isn't evolution. It is maximizing the athletic potential of our bodies through nutrition and training. There's also the cheating thing... drugs, horemones etc.

You can see micro evolution at very rapid rates, but what we're doing is nothing like that. Google Tasmanian Devils to see a case. But to get it you needed a serious amount of environmental pressure. Basically, a risk to the species that put it through a bottleneck.
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  #72  
Old 07-17-2017, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamis View Post
Seems likely that he'll figure out his back issues and work around it. Lots of people start to get injuries in their late 20's, then they learn how to warm up better, and how to train better so that they don't get injured. Mcbeth seems like a smart guy, I bet he's healthy for a long time. And of course Wysocki seems to be perfectly healthy.
I'd of sworn that Paul's injury came from a misstep on a throw? Your point is still correct, in general.
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  #73  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:56 AM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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Originally Posted by Shamis View Post
Seems likely that he'll figure out his back issues and work around it. Lots of people start to get injuries in their late 20's, then they learn how to warm up better, and how to train better so that they don't get injured. Mcbeth seems like a smart guy, I bet he's healthy for a long time. And of course Wysocki seems to be perfectly healthy.
Spoken like someone who has never had back issues- they can be atypical of injuries in general.
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  #74  
Old 07-18-2017, 10:48 AM
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Spoken like someone who has never had back issues- they can be atypical of injuries in general.
I've gone through long bouts of severe back pain. Mostly in my 20's. Now I have a routine I follow to keep my back healthy, and at age 39, my back is better than it was at 25.
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Old 07-18-2017, 10:52 AM
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I've gone through long bouts of severe back pain. Mostly in my 20's. Now I have a routine I follow to keep my back healthy, and at age 39, my back is better than it was at 25.
I've found the same. I'm 57. If I stretch, do core workouts, and stay on top of it I'm pretty solid. I thought Paul slipped a disc though? Might not be the same. My problems are all muscular.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:19 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by 5QU166Y View Post
Good point. I forgot that DX Eagles were the only drivers available. Because Vipers and Whippets are just imaginary discs, right?
Oh, OK, Funny. I get your sarcasm. But I'd really like to know what your source is for that somewhat backhanded assertion.

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Originally Posted by 5QU166Y View Post
What makes you think Climo was throwing understable discs into headwinds? Rocs handle headwinds decently well, as do many divers of the time. The point isn't that players can't perform these shots, but that there just isn't a need to do so in competition. However, I guarantee that if McBeth decided to throw his Nova into a headwind, he would do so extremely well. Also, if you've actually played with someone who has a lot of power like the pros have, you'd know better than to say they're throwing hard all the time. 450' seems casual for them, and if they're throwing hard, you know it.
Maybe I was there, Mr. 22-year-old. Had conversations with the man (and others of his day) and heard him discuss it in clinics other times. Yes I've heard the very words, "My Eagle was the most overstable thing we had at one time." And watched him then do it, into a headwind. I mean what do you think they were throwing into a headwind in these videos?





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Sure, but that's why it's fun to discuss it
It's absolutely fun to discuss. Especially with those who see what they've recently as "the best."
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Old 07-20-2017, 04:15 PM
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Oh, OK, Funny. I get your sarcasm. But I'd really like to know what your source is for that somewhat backhanded assertion.
On the PDGA approved discs list, the Viper was approved on 13/03/91 and the Whippet was approved on 02/07/92. The Eagle was approved on 03/12/99. Unless you're talking about the super old Innova Eagle that's not in production (which 1978 was definitely not referencing in the first place), overstable drivers certainly predate that mold.

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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Maybe I was there, Mr. 22-year-old. Had conversations with the man (and others of his day) and heard him discuss it in clinics other times. Yes I've heard the very words, "My Eagle was the most overstable thing we had at one time." And watched him then do it, into a headwind. I mean what do you think they were throwing into a headwind in these videos?




Ken Climo didn't even win a world championship until 1990, so why is it relevant to point out what people were throwing at the 1977 world championships? I think it's entirely possible they were throwing Vipers into headwinds in the second video you posted, since the disc was already available. Again, my first post wasn't to claim that it's not possible to throw understable discs in various conditions, but that pros aren't likely to do it in competition because it isn't as predictable as an overstable driver.

I think it's unreasonable to assume that new pros don't throw understable stuff into headwinds because their form isn't as good as Climo's. I don't think that argument has any basis because as I stated, Climo certainly had overstable drivers for most of his competitive years, and there is also no reason to assume newer pros' form is not capable of throwing flippy discs into headwinds.

As a matter of fact, if you recall the 2015 Memorial (where McBeth's bag was stolen), he throws a flippy Destroyer on the final hole into a headwind because he said he lost his other destroyers during the round. It's obvious that he is capable of such a shot, and there's no reason to think Climo has an advantage over him in this regard:


Last edited by 5QU166Y; 07-20-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:37 PM
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Innova63 Innova63 is online now
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Originally Posted by 5QU166Y View Post
On the PDGA approved discs list, the Viper was approved on 13/03/91 and the Whippet was approved on 02/07/92. The Eagle was approved on 03/12/99. Unless you're talking about the super old Innova Eagle that's not in production (which 1978 was definitely not referencing in the first place), overstable drivers certainly predate that mold.



Ken Climo didn't even win a world championship until 1990, so why is it relevant to point out what people were throwing at the 1977 world championships? I think it's entirely possible they were throwing Vipers into headwinds in the second video you posted, since the disc was already available. Again, my first post wasn't to claim that it's not possible to throw understable discs in various conditions, but that pros aren't likely to do it in competition because it isn't as predictable as an overstable driver.

I think it's unreasonable to assume that new pros don't throw understable stuff into headwinds because their form isn't as good as Climo's. I don't think that argument has any basis because as I stated, Climo certainly had overstable drivers for most of his competitive years, and there is also no reason to assume newer pros' form is not capable of throwing flippy discs into headwinds.

As a matter of fact, if you recall the 2015 Memorial (where McBeth's bag was stolen), he throws a flippy Destroyer on the final hole into a headwind because he said he lost his other destroyers during the round. It's obvious that he is capable of such a shot, and there's no reason to think Climo has an advantage over him in this regard:

Not sure if you are aware of this or not, the "eagle" he is referring to was the prototype of the Aero.....
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Innova63 View Post
Not sure if you are aware of this or not, the "eagle" he is referring to was the prototype of the Aero.....
I addressed that in my response, but I don't think he was. The reason he brought up the Eagle was because he was replying to 1978's post where he said that Ricky could use CE/DX/Pro discs and mentioned the Eagle. Since 1978 mentioned these premium plastics, that would indicate he was also discussing the much better known new Eagle mold, since it came out around the time of these premium plastics.

If araytx was referencing the old mold Eagle, then he is correct to say that it isn't very stable (the Aero is cool, but neutral at best), but he shouldn't have been discussing it in the first place, since the post he replied to referenced the new Eagle mold. I think if you follow the quote chain you'll agree with this.
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  #80  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:14 PM
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I think it's possible that Climo was saying that the old mold Eagle was the most overstable disc in his bag when he was learning to throw (which makes sense to me), but I think araytx misunderstood him to mean the new mold Eagle that 1978 was referencing in his post. However, my point that Climo had access to overstable drivers throughout the majority of his dominant years remains.
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