#781  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:03 AM
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Laura, and Nova, why are you ok with the new IAAf rules if it means more struggles for trans women?
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  #782  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcón View Post
Laura, and Nova, why are you ok with the new IAAf rules if it means more struggles for trans women?
I don't agree with your assumption that this will mean more struggles for transgender women.
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  #783  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:15 AM
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These rules are an attempt to get it right. Laura and Nova support that effort. They want it to be right. At least, this is how I interpret it.

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  #784  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:27 AM
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These rules are an attempt to get it right. Laura and Nova support that effort. They want it to be right. At least, this is how I interpret it.
You're right. For me it's not about a team win (or sticking it to the other team), as much as it is about following the data where it leads, and trying to achieve goals which increase human understanding and decrease misery.

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Old 10-17-2019, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
I don't agree with your assumption that this will mean more struggles for transgender women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
I do not know this is backed up by fact yet, but from personal experience, and from simple medical facts; with transgender women having either chemically or surgically changed their testosterone production would be struggling really hard to even get close to the 5nmol/l threshold. (cisgender women produce T in their adrenal glands AND ovaries; transgender women would either be chemically preventing creation (or cause destruction) of T, and when doing so chemically, they'd be left .
Laura seems to think it would be difficult to achieve 5nmol/l. Wouldn't that mean more struggles?

Last edited by Halcón; 10-17-2019 at 01:41 AM.
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
You're right. For me it's not about a team win (or sticking it to the other team), as much as it is about following the data where it leads, and trying to achieve goals which increase human understanding and decrease misery.
If the data and understanding leads to the eventual banning of trans women from competition in women's divisions, would you accept that?
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  #787  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:47 AM
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Dude, combine your posts. Anyway.

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Originally Posted by Halcón View Post
Laura seems to think it would be difficult to achieve 5nmol/l. Wouldn't that mean more struggles?
Does she? I must have missed that. I've not been paying super close attention the last dozen or so pages, which probably makes us pretty similar. Link please? I promise I'll go read it, unlike you and the IAAF paper.

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Originally Posted by Halcón View Post
If the data and understanding leads to the eventual banning of trans women from competition in women's divisions, would you accept that?
Sure, I'll play "stupid hypotheticals for the sake of rhetoric which probably won't happen" with you.

(deadpan voice and flat stare indicating an elaborate display of patience)
Yes.
(/deadpan voice and flat stare indicating an elaborate display of patience)

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  #788  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
Dude, combine your posts. Anyway.



Does she? I must have missed that. I've not been paying super close attention the last dozen or so pages, which probably makes us pretty similar. Link please? I promise I'll go read it, unlike you and the IAAF paper.



Sure, I'll play "stupid hypotheticals for the sake of rhetoric which probably won't happen" with you.

(deadpan voice and flat stare indicating an elaborate display of patience)
Yes.
(/deadpan voice and flat stare indicating an elaborate display of patience)
I quoted Laura. Did you see it?
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  #789  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcón View Post
I quoted Laura. Did you see it?
Hah, I'm thick. If that was a snake it would have bit me. Hang on, I'll go read it.

(Insert a pause of a few minutes here.)

I don't think we're reading that the same way. You seem to think that she's saying that transgender women would struggle to get down to less than 5 nmol/dl and I think she's saying that transgender women would struggle to produce more than 5 nmol/dl.

She'll have to tell us which reading is the intended one.
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  #790  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
Hah, I'm thick. If that was a snake it would have bit me. Hang on, I'll go read it.

(Insert a pause of a few minutes here.)

I don't think we're reading that the same way. You seem to think that she's saying that transgender women would struggle to get down to less than 5 nmol/dl and I think she's saying that transgender women would struggle to produce more than 5 nmol/dl.

She'll have to tell us which reading is the intended one.
I'll admit the wording is difficult, but I'm sure English is not her first language, so no fault there. But why would a trans woman struggle to stay over 5nmol/l.
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