Balled up Disc

[robdeforge]

Originally Posted by dmoore1998

The folks who think balling the disc up is illegal...I'm curious how they look at players intentionally bending discs prior to throwing. It's certainly not to the extent of making a ball, but plenty of players flex their discs prior to a throw. It's almost definitely not snapping back 100% to the EXACT shape it was prior to bending it. Ok because it's minimal and still has "roughly" the same disc-like shape?

I'd be interested in seeing proof that this alters its original flight characteristics. One of the aspects of enforcement is that "Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred." To me it's clear that rolling up a blowfly changes its flight characteristics, as evidenced by watching the rolled up blowfly in action. It's not clear that slightly bending or flexing a disc changes the flight characteristics, nor is it clear to me after the player is done bending/flexing the disc that its shape has changed. Not sure if that is what someone on the RC would say though so I'm curious to see another perspective

[Countchunkula]

Originally Posted by The Shide

The RC should put in the Q&A section a direct answer to this question, to put it to rest.

If they do a Q&A, there will be people complaining that it should have been written into the rules themselves. If you update the rules themselves, regardless of how it's written, there will be people complaining that it is poorly worded and doesn't address every hypothetical.

Lincoln must have anticipated disc golfers.

[Cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by Steve West

That's not a valid distinction. Players are allowed to glue lights or ribbons on permanently. They're just not allowed to use those discs unless the TD declares night or snow play.

(After you've played a few years, you'll understand some players have more than one set of discs.)

Even if there was a difference between permanent and temporary modifications (which there is not) your "logic" boils down to "some temporary modifications are allowed for temporary conditions, so ALL temporary modifications must be allowed for temporary conditions".

Nope, it doesn't work that way. You can't tape a steel plate to your putter to deal with a headwind, not even if you remove it after the discs lands.

The inference I was going for is not that these approved temporary mods necessarily make balling legal but that they are examples why balling should be allowed under the rules. The PDGA approved 10 meter Brick disc essentially "balled" the weight in the middle of the disc to concentrate it into a smaller volume in the same way balling the Blowfly concentrates its weight into a smaller volume but only temporarily. You can see the flex rating on the 10 M Brick is about the same as the Blowfly so it can also be balled even more than its initial shape.

[Steve West]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

The inference I was going for is not that these approved temporary mods necessarily make balling legal but that they are examples why balling should be allowed under the rules. The PDGA approved 10 meter Brick disc essentially "balled" the weight in the middle of the disc to concentrate it into a smaller volume in the same way balling the Blowfly concentrates its weight into a smaller volume but only temporarily. You can see the flex rating on the 10 M Brick is about the same as the Blowfly so it can also be balled even more than its initial shape.

Again, you're saying that because something is legal, something unrelated should be legal.

Your logic would allow a player to add a wide rim to their putter just because some other disc was approved with a wide rim.

[Cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by Steve West

Again, you're saying that because something is legal, something unrelated should be legal.

Not unrelated. I pointed out the similarities. Remember that one of the first rules is about Fairness, using equivalent scenarios to determine a "fair" call. IMO, this scenario qualifies for that parallel equivalency with other mods allowed. You may disagree but the jury is still out obviously trying to add wording to justify their pre-conceived ideas towards non-legality.

[BogeyNoMore]

I truly enjoy the logical arguments and debate around these rules discussions.


Hypothetical for those of you who say calling a floppy blowfly/soft vibrant disc is legal...

Then shouldn't it be legal with any PDGA approved disc?

Say it's so sweltering my hot out that my DX Roc becomes pliable and gooey. I was it up into a sphere with my hands and chuck it in the basket.



...only it stays in a ball. It doesn't have the resilience to spring back to it's original shape. It's clearly no longer disc shaped. No mistaking that the damned thing's now a ball.

1) Was that putt a legal?

2) OK for me to use that "disc" on the next hole?
I wanna pitch a fastball at the next Ace Run hole, or throw a great roller.

[BogeyNoMore]

*wad, not was.

[dmoore1998]

Originally Posted by robdeforge

I'd be interested in seeing proof that this alters its original flight characteristics. One of the aspects of enforcement is that "Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred." To me it's clear that rolling up a blowfly changes its flight characteristics, as evidenced by watching the rolled up blowfly in action. It's not clear that slightly bending or flexing a disc changes the flight characteristics, nor is it clear to me after the player is done bending/flexing the disc that its shape has changed. Not sure if that is what someone on the RC would say though so I'm curious to see another perspective

I'm less worried about enforcement than I am about the discussion here which is more about "is it against the rules". Enforcement becomes a whole different animal.

[Cgkdisc]

One organic way to tighten up the rule to reduce/prevent bending/balling at throw release is to refer to the gap size spec for baskets. The maximum gap allowed is 17cm in the basket tray and chain support with the intent to significantly reduce wedgies and discs completely entering through a gap. Simply add a rule that the maximum dimension of the disc at the time of release must be at least 17cm in reference to the basket gap spec, or be even more stringent and use 20.5cm, just under the 21cm minimum disc diameter allowed. That would still allow tacoing the disc (only on Tuesdays?), where some players slightly bend and snap the disc near the chains, but not allow the double-fold balling.

[krupicka]

Originally Posted by dmoore1998

I'm less worried about enforcement than I am about the discussion here which is more about "is it against the rules". Enforcement becomes a whole different animal.

The official word that we have given from the RC is that it is against the rules.