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Old 12-12-2018, 04:17 AM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Default Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg counterweighting to the opposite side of the fulcrum.

Take a gander at Eveliina and Simon here, both are releasing the disc with body sideways to target with right arm and left arm/leg extended out to opposite sides of the tee:






Watch how Henna lines up sideways with shoulders inline to target and rear foot counters to right. She makes no attempt to square her hips or shoulders to the target. She only gets pulled through from momentum.


Note how Wiggins hips and shoulders are basically sideways still after release and rear arm/leg countered behind the opposite side:

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Last edited by sidewinder22; 05-18-2019 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 12-12-2018, 08:48 AM
jaysim jaysim is offline
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I've been doing fieldwork and videoing myself for a couple of months trying to fix issues with pulling too close to the body, releasing in front of the body and opening the shoulders too early. I just haven't been able to work out these kinks. While reading your post it occured to me that I've probably been thinking about all the wrong things instead of getting to the real issue. Which I now suspect are the hips. I don't want to hijack the thread and I will probably post my own formwork thread at some point.

But I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the timing and the movements of the hips works to get in to this position. I've always thought the throw as starting from the plant - then turning the hips - the hips turning the shoulders - the elbow extending. Seeing these freeze frames I think my main problem is the timing of the hips and posibly even how to actually engage them.

Another thing that caught my eyes was the forward tilting spine. I can see how that relates to the left foot kicking out so wide. I feel like this isn't something every pro does (like Avery Jenkins). Is it necessary for getting properly in to the position Eveliina, Simon and David are in at their release? And does it relate to how the hips should work in the throw?
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Old 12-12-2018, 01:19 PM
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HyzerUniBomber HyzerUniBomber is offline
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No question... I think we've been on a very similar mental path with regards to going from the old school way of teaching to this bigger picture view. So much of the minor issues seem to get worked out automatically, or at least much easier - when you can bang your head around the idea that we're trying to maximize the form to leverage a disc.

For me the thing that really got in the way was that discs are so light, that you can get away with some pretty inefficient stuff and still see great results. But the final steps in developing max power seem to require that we setup like we're throwing a 400-500g disc.

When you setup to do that, you really quickly see how the direction that you want to resist against is different that just what you'd need to resist in order to maintain balance. Example, I can maintain balance shifting at an angle much less than the angle that is maximizing the ability to leverage.

Great topic, I hope this one is something that we can continue to discuss and refine - as it seems very likely to be a fundamental concept.

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Old 12-12-2018, 01:28 PM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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The pictures of Eveliina and Simon and Wiggins below really clarify for me where over the front foot actually is and how important the rear leg is for counter balance..

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Old 12-12-2018, 03:06 PM
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Both Simon and Eviliina appear to be throwing with a significant hyzer, which makes sense given their spinal angle. Also of note is that their lever (throwing arm) is close to 90 degrees relative to their spinal angle, as well. There are times when I feel like I'm close to releasing with this posture and everything is clicking. Those also tend to be the days that I'm throwing everything 30 feet further.
If you were to modify this form to throw with a flat release rather than with a hyzer, what should change? Does the spinal angle become upright rather than forward? If so, how does one maintain a dynamic/athletic posture when completely upright? Or if the spinal angle stays roughly the same, does that mean that the lever should create an obtuse angle relative to the spine? That feels absolutely terrible. I throw with hyzer probably 90% of the time, but that 10% that I release flat or anny always feels so much less athletic.
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Old 12-12-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aphilso1 View Post
I throw with hyzer probably 90% of the time, but that 10% that I release flat or anny always feels so much less athletic.
Mechanically, you can't get the same leverage you can in hyzer position. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but hyzer position is the best position for power.

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Old 12-12-2018, 03:40 PM
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drk_evns drk_evns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg counterweighting to the opposite side of the fulcrum.
Recently I realized I was still using my arm to try and put power on the shots even though I knew it needed to finish extended fully to the hit.

In my subconscious need to put power on the throw with my arm, I was manipulating where the hit point was and it was out of time. Almost as if something pulled the string taught (my muscles) before it naturally would have gone taught at the hit anyways. This caused griplock and accuracy issues.

Now that I've finally "let go" I feel like I can't miss my hit point because everything about the throw is automatically putting my arm there.

Which leads to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Watch how Henna lines up sideways with shoulders inline to target and rear foot counters to right. She makes no attempt to square her hips or shoulders to the target. She only gets pulled through from momentum. :
Now I'm able to aim the throw with my shoulders because I can trust my arm to get to the hit point. My whole run up I'm just staring down my target and pointing my shoulders at it.

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Old 12-12-2018, 08:58 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysim View Post
1. I was wondering if you could elaborate on how the timing and the movements of the hips works to get in to this position. I've always thought the throw as starting from the plant - then turning the hips - the hips turning the shoulders - the elbow extending. Seeing these freeze frames I think my main problem is the timing of the hips and possibly even how to actually engage them.

2. Another thing that caught my eyes was the forward tilting spine. I can see how that relates to the left foot kicking out so wide. I feel like this isn't something every pro does (like Avery Jenkins). Is it necessary for getting properly in to the position Eveliina, Simon and David are in at their release? And does it relate to how the hips should work in the throw?
1. Timing is a four letter word I don't use in technique. Timing variables are dependent on the individual's anatomy and speed and angles.

It's all about the Kinetic Chain Sequence which you have basically already described from the Ground Up. The throw is really simple, but our brains get in the way. Everything works more together in sync like a one-arm Olympic hammer throw. I think everybody intuitively understands the hammer throw. No hammer thrower thinks about firing the hips or lag or x-factor. Like HUB said, if we were throwing 500g discs things become natural. This is why little kids learn perfect form so easy, to them a 150g disc is like a sledgehammer. You feel what you did wrong when you get in the way of that momentum and what you need to do get out its way and release it.

One-Arm Olympic Hammer/Disc Drill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk



2. It's all about balance. Eveliina, Simon and David are in perfect position for hyzer. Avery tends to throw more anhyzer, but his trail foot still everts countering the arm swing. Since he is more upright his mass is not spreading out left and right nearly as much, so his whole mass is more stacked and centered on the Center of Gravity/Axis of Rotation which also increases rotational speed and hip mobility but trades off leverage.



This is an interesting and funny read "Why Throwers Throw the Way They Throw":
https://slate.com/culture/2004/08/wh...hey-throw.html

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Last edited by sidewinder22; 12-12-2018 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 12-12-2018, 10:25 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aphilso1 View Post
If you were to modify this form to throw with a flat release rather than with a hyzer, what should change? Does the spinal angle become upright rather than forward? If so, how does one maintain a dynamic/athletic posture when completely upright? Or if the spinal angle stays roughly the same, does that mean that the lever should create an obtuse angle relative to the spine? That feels absolutely terrible. I throw with hyzer probably 90% of the time, but that 10% that I release flat or anny always feels so much less athletic.
I never swing flat. I usually just flip something understable flat from hyzer, or I tilt balance behind heel and throw slight anhyzer with something fairly stable(less preferred). Note the spine tilt is always athletic forward relative to body:


This would be similar to your theoretical vertical spine and "Flat Swing Plane". It would be awkward trying to shift from one foot to the other foot maintaining this. This is why I say Flat doesn't really exist. It's also the most inconsistent angle you could attempt to throw on, 1 degree variation is either hyzer or anhyzer. If you want to throw on 10 degree hyzer or anhyzer and miss by +/- a couple degrees, it's not going to change your shot nearly as drastically.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drk_evns View Post
Mechanically, you can't get the same leverage you can in hyzer position.
Hyzer is more natural/efficient/ergonomic leverage.

Although technically I think you might get more leverage on steep anhyzer or roller snapping from overhead toward the ground like pitching overhand vs submarine, but backhand.

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Old 12-13-2018, 02:00 AM
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Another one from the side of Henna Blomroos. I instantly thought she has the best form of any female pro not named PP.

https://gfycat.com/WindingEmptyEmperorpenguin

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