#341  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:38 AM
Jsmithey Jsmithey is offline
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Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
A woman transitioning to a man does not have the physical advantages of a man turning into a woman, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

I dont know of ANY tests by the PDGA, so i dont know about any tests of testosterone either.
Testosterone is commonly tested for by your doctor if you've ever had blood work done at your doctor. Also commonly tested if a patient has thyroid issues.
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  #342  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:41 AM
Jsmithey Jsmithey is offline
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Originally Posted by Jsmithey View Post
Some people use the term pre/post op transgender

i.e someone who hasnt had surgery would be a pre-op trans woman someone who has would be a post-op trans woman.
I should also add as Nova stated it's courteous to refer to both as a woman she/her unless asked for other pro nouns.
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  #343  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:45 AM
Jsmithey Jsmithey is offline
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Originally Posted by wolfhaley View Post
And also your average joe can buy P90X without a doctors note. Anybody who has listened to sports radio in the last couple years is Painfully aware of this. Not doctor prescribed, but easily available. So it's ok for men to buy and ingest products frequently advertised on TV that "boost" testosterone? But a man transitioning to a woman taking estrogen is somehow so worse, doctor prescribed by the way. Not mel kiper selling it to me? So basically can a man have TOO much testosterone. Just curious?
Short answer is yes, but I'm not sure any standards exist when it comes to the ioc/pdga.
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  #344  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:48 AM
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Monocacy Monocacy is online now
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Discussion about athletes who transition from female to male reminded me of an article I read a few years ago about a swimmer at Harvard:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...8e5_story.html
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  #345  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:53 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
What is the proper term to differentiate between these two:

A) A male who identifies as a woman but has not made any medical, physical changes.
B) A male who has made the medical/physical transformation to a woman.

I don't see how B could ever be accused of transitioning just to gain an advantage over other women in sports.
A would ONLY be allowed to play in gender-protected divisions (unless by body chemistry their testosterone levels are low enough - think for instance hermaphrodite, Difference in Sexual Development, hyperandrogenous, or karyotype people with male external features but female internal featured), B would be allowed as long as (either through testostereon blocking medication, or through orchiectomy) their testosterone values are low enough.

FYI:
male range = 15-35nmol/l
female range = (roughly) 1.5-3.5nmol/l
transgender threshold < 10nmol/l

FYI2: my value 0.4 average since starting medical transition, 19 months ago
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  #346  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:55 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
Seems like a cluster. Read theses last few out of order so my first reaction was the 60m (indoor) and 800m would probably the MOST affected by testosterone. Different bonuses from it but the 800m might have the largest discrepancy in time between men and women world records which I would think is a bit of an indication of testosterone being a big bonus.

I can see how the specific ban must have looked but also understand where it may have come from.

A bit interested in this side of the whole discussion as elevated levels of hormones to even a playing field need to be treated the same if it is natural or artificial.

With a trans female to male transition i guess it would be testing at time of competition to see what is in the blood? Even though other athletes are tested year round? ?
That specific ban is ALWAYS going to be wrong, because then you'll be needing to update the rules as distances are new/retired.
By simply stating t levels always below X (and I'd be happier with 5nmol/l than 10nmol/l, because it is closer to vast majority of average women), you are 'always' up to date with your guidelines

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  #347  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:04 AM
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Arisugawa Arisugawa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
A would ONLY be allowed to play in gender-protected divisions (unless by body chemistry their testosterone levels are low enough - think for instance hermaphrodite, Difference in Sexual Development, hyperandrogenous, or karyotype people with male external features but female internal featured), B would be allowed as long as (either through testostereon blocking medication, or through orchiectomy) their testosterone values are low enough.
I'm sorry, but could you please clarify? Person A can only play gender protected divisions?

My understanding of the question was that person A was someone born physically male and has yet to undergo any medical transition, hormonal, surgical, or otherwise. I'm not sure what gender protected division this person could ONLY play. Playing the mixed (non-gender protected) divisions is always an option for any player regardless of gender.

Was this thought incomplete?
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  #348  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:04 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfhaley View Post
And also your average joe can buy P90X without a doctors note. Anybody who has listened to sports radio in the last couple years is Painfully aware of this. Not doctor prescribed, but easily available. So it's ok for men to buy and ingest products frequently advertised on TV that "boost" testosterone? But a man transitioning to a woman taking estrogen is somehow so worse, doctor prescribed by the way. Not mel kiper selling it to me? So basically can a man have TOO much testosterone. Just curious?
Just like transgender women would - the ones transitioning medically, not JUST socially - be taking testosterone blocking or surgical measures to thwart "male" chemistry and its effects,
transgender men would - in the same case - be taking tesotsterone to transition to a more male physique (facial hair, deepening of voice, fat > muscle change, and mental psychological differences too.

As testosterone IS a controlled substance, and in cisgender women (think 80's Eastern Block countries) it would a cause for bans because of positive testing.
I would expect a transman to have 'fairly normal' - probably a bit lower than mean value - testosterone values, and would therefore not be submitting positive tests, but yes, technically speaking, transmen are using doping.
There are NO specific regulations in place for transmen and what their T levels should be.
And transwomen are using anti-doping.

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Last edited by gingerandhoney; 08-07-2019 at 09:08 AM.
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  #349  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:07 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arisugawa View Post
I'm sorry, but could you please clarify? Person A can only play gender protected divisions?

My understanding of the question was that person A was someone born physically male and has yet to undergo any medical transition, hormonal, surgical, or otherwise. I'm not sure what gender protected division this person could ONLY play. Playing the mixed (non-gender protected) divisions is always an option for any player regardless of gender.

Was this thought incomplete?
Yes, I got lost in subclauses.
A would only be allowed to play ingender-protected divisions provided their T levels are low enough (despite not medically altering it).
Most likely though, they'd be "stuck" playing in mixed divisions

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  #350  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:08 AM
Jsmithey Jsmithey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arisugawa View Post
I'm sorry, but could you please clarify? Person A can only play gender protected divisions?

My understanding of the question was that person A was someone born physically male and has yet to undergo any medical transition, hormonal, surgical, or otherwise. I'm not sure what gender protected division this person could ONLY play. Playing the mixed (non-gender protected) divisions is always an option for any player regardless of gender.

Was this thought incomplete?
*A would only be allowed to play in mixed
*B would be allowed in gender protected provided they meet the current standard.
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