#391  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:28 AM
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Noill Noill is offline
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ginger is responding. Her response is that this is not her decision, but is the decision of the IOC. She doesn't have to say anything else.
Take it to the IOC. Form your petition, gather your doctors, and go from there. Interrogating the thoughts of one person who is acting within the rules is awkward.
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  #392  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Noill View Post
Interrogating the thoughts of one person who is acting within the rules is awkward.
No! No! I want the representative of a scorned and misunderstood (and mostly hated) minority to educate everyone, constantly, for the rest of time! Even though it takes only a few words to ask a question and hundreds of words to answer them, so the burden of the conversation is disproportionately heaped on her, and we're doing this on the internet where literally all of the information in the world is stored, I want this person right here in front of me to show endless patience and grace while answering the same five questions again and again for a never-ending parade of new entrants to the discussion, never once losing her temper or showing the slightest annoyance or suspicion that some of the questions may not be asked in the best of intent, for fear that any mis-step or poorly-chosen word will set back not just herself but her entire (scorned and misunderstood, and mostly hated) demographic and jeopardize her barely-held legitimacy as a participating member of the human race!

/s, obviously.

In more level-headed prose: it takes only a few seconds and a sentence to ask a question that's been asked and answered tens of times in this discussion, or similar discussions like it elsewhere on the internet, and the answers are out there for anyone who wants to look. It's unbelievably wearying to have to justify oneself endlessly to an endlessly-refreshing audience of interrogators. Keep this in mind before casually typing a few words that essentially gives someone else essay homework.

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  #393  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:48 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
Maybe English not being your first language is getting in the way a bit here. That isn't a criticism of you as I think for the most part things are being communicated back and forth fairly well, but I think there was a trip up here.
So let me say this again. No one here is saying that muscle mass isn't a factor. It is. What I am criticizing you for is ignoring that there are other factors.

A peer reviewed paper isn't necessary for things like basic physical facts like longer levers giving a greater mechanical advantage. Do I need to go out and find a peer reviewed paper that states that or can we all just recall back to our 6th grade science classes?
Indeed, English is not my mother native language, but I have been more than proficient in English as a second language for about 30-35 years. Thank you for pointing it out.
My focussing on other parts of the equation is not due to a lack of grasp or comprehension of English; it is due to a focus on the more obvious parts of what the equation is really about.

I am not ignoring other factors. I am simply stating that only when looking at average male bodies and comparing them to average female bodies, the points you make could possibly be valid.
I'll rephrase once again. Paige Pierce and Val Jenkins are more physiologically diverse than Kerri French and I am.
My pelvic and hip bone structure is DIFFERENT form Kerri's. This could give me a bigger advantage in track & field, not in disc golf.

Kerri's shoulders are broader than mine, she has longer limbs, she is taller, has a more athletic build. All of these play to the perceived male advantage that they would have physiologically and or kinesiologically.
Once again, for an average male/female body comparison, I might come out on top in some cases. I just as well will come out on the bottom in others.
And yes, even when assuming that male bodies are physiologically "better" than that of women, the very severe loss of muscle mass, makes the male body basically a drag racing car with a small capacity V2 engine.


Kerri also has better muscle tone, and has a better way to physically deal with high temperatures/humididy.

Still, I beat her, because I putt better, and hit significantly less trees than she did in round 4.
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  #394  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:49 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
ok, thx for replying. I'm sure it's hard for you not to assume some hatred based on what you have gone through. But as far as this thread goes... sure it's a bit heated at times but I think...there has been no blatant hatred being shown.
I fully agree, and have stated as much about 5 times throughout the whole thread, incuding expressing my gratitude.
Weird, how I feel I must show gratitude for basic civic courtesy being extended to me, right?
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  #395  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:54 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
No! No! I want the representative of a scorned and misunderstood (and mostly hated) minority to educate everyone, constantly, for the rest of time! Even though it takes only a few words to ask a question and hundreds of words to answer them, so the burden of the conversation is disproportionately heaped on her, and we're doing this on the internet where literally all of the information in the world is stored, I want this person right here in front of me to show endless patience and grace while answering the same five questions again and again for a never-ending parade of new entrants to the discussion, never once losing her temper or showing the slightest annoyance or suspicion that some of the questions may not be asked in the best of intent, for fear that any mis-step or poorly-chosen word will set back not just herself but her entire (scorned and misunderstood, and mostly hated) demographic and jeopardize her barely-held legitimacy as a participating member of the human race!

/s, obviously.

In more level-headed prose: it takes only a few seconds and a sentence to ask a question that's been asked and answered tens of times in this discussion, or similar discussions like it elsewhere on the internet, and the answers are out there for anyone who wants to look. It's unbelievably wearying to have to justify oneself endlessly to an endlessly-refreshing audience of interrogators. Keep this in mind before casually typing a few words that essentially gives someone else essay homework.
#micdrop

I do indeed feel I owe it to the community I am now a highly visible, and scorned, and deliegitimised member of, to help raise awareness, visibility (I got that, didn't I?), and hopefully ultimately, acceptance for LGBTQ+ athletes in general, and transgender athletes in particular.

If that means I can no longer enter a discussion without being caller a cheat, any kind of slur, now a woman, it, he, or anything else, I will take that, and see past it.
Whilst also taking the time, to kindly ask for at least a bit of civic courtesy in at least referring to me by eithe rmy legal name, or female pronouns.

I will repeat once again, that this whoe thread is by far the most civil thread on the topic.

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  #396  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:56 AM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
A peer reviewed paper isn't necessary for things like basic physical facts like longer levers giving a greater mechanical advantage.
Longer levers? You mean longer arms? I mean at that point you are saying Jeremy Kolling has an unfair advantage over me because he's tall with long arms and I'm short with TeeRex arms. Nobody cares about that, he just gets to be a USDGC winner and I get to suck.

Of course it's just one of many factors that result in him being a USDGC winner and me sucking, and it's not the most important of those factors. It's just a thing. You can't regulate body type. So if you are not regulating body type and handicapping people with long arms in any way withing the traditional gender definitions, how can you suddenly try to make it an issue with a transgendered female? If it's not an issue when Jeremy Kolling kicks my ***, it can't be an issue with transgendered females. At that point you are just making up things to be worried about.

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  #397  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:00 PM
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Nova P Nova P is offline
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If we decide to start classifying people by height and limb length, I'm so ****ed. =D

edit: I'd basically be in a division with Big Jerm and two dozen lanky ex-baseball pitchers, and maybe one collegiate softball pitcher, depending on the cut-off line.

Last edited by Nova P; 08-14-2019 at 12:02 PM. Reason: details
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  #398  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:02 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
Longer levers? You mean longer arms? I mean at that point you are saying Jeremy Kolling has an unfair advantage over me because he's tall with long arms and I'm short with TeeRex arms. Nobody cares about that, he just gets to be a USDGC winner and I get to suck.

Of course it's just one of many factors that result in him being a USDGC winner and me sucking, and it's not the most important of those factors. It's just a thing. You can't regulate body type. So if you are not regulating body type and handicapping people with long arms in any way withing the traditional gender definitions, how can you suddenly try to make it an issue with a transgendered female? If it's not an issue when Jeremy Kolling kicks my ***, it can't be an issue with transgendered females. At that point you are just making up things to be worried about.
It's either always an issue, and then you need to give Big Jerm his own division, with the likes of Eagle and SImon (but they'd still get their own-own division for weighing farr les than Jerm - talking kinesiology and kinetics; think of inertia and thrust helped by body weight)

Exactly. That is why I keep referring to Val and Paige being more different than Kerri and me.
And then we haven't even talked about people like Michael Phelps (multi-Olympic gold medalist), who not only has really large feet (definitely a bonus in swimming), but on a more basic level, he has a genetic mutation that makes his body secrete far LESS lactic acid than his competitors.
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  #399  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
I do indeed feel I owe it to the community I am now a highly visible, and scorned, and deliegitimised member of, to help raise awareness, visibility (I got that, didn't I?), and hopefully ultimately, acceptance for LGBTQ+ athletes in general, and transgender athletes in particular.
Educate people for as long as you want to, but if you ever get tired of it, don't be ashamed to take some time away and just live your life in peace. You've earned it and deserve it.

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  #400  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:19 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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I still have enough strength in me to keep doing this. And the support I get and feel from other people (even if there's an imbalance, I get about 1 *up* for every 50 *down*) helps me regain strength and love and determination to continue doing this.

And in the mean time, I am counselling transgender people about to come out in real life, and helping other sport organisations to set up or update their transgender policy.
Oh, and I have a job I guess.
Guess that's why I was so tired the last 2.5 weeks, I skipped sleep to answer to posts in real time (99% of those messages being written 6-9 hours West of me)
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