#11  
Old 03-18-2016, 01:26 AM
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nope...
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  #12  
Old 03-18-2016, 01:34 AM
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There's this guy. I do twice the work he does, and I do it better. But he's paid three times what I get just because he married the owner's daughter.

Don't worry Fred. There'll be pie in the sky when you die.
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  #13  
Old 03-18-2016, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredV View Post
Occasionally my discs will hit a rock, fence, or metal sign. That causes a deep scrape or gouge in the disc. Sanding does too little for the indentations, and it does too much to the frayed edges and burrs that occur. I'd rather not turn my disc into plastic dust. Another thread here mentioned filing as an alternative to sanding; but, that seems to be no more than a quicker way to loose plastic. Another way to treat these disc injuries is to soften the high spots of the scrape or gouge with a fine tip soldering gun and move that plastic into the recess. That would result in a disc that is more like was. A disc that is still dented and bumpy, but lighter, is not a happy disc.
The rules concerning disc modifications present a number of problems which understandably have resulted in widespread disregard for their expressed terms. The question I have here is more interested in players' thinking about reasonable alternatives to sanding than it is about how the rules might be strictly or loosely applied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredV View Post
A good bit of official attention is given to discs that become distorted as a result of high impact during play. Reasonable allowances have been made so that people are permitted to use distorted discs without being found to have illegally thrown discs that no longer fly like they did out-of-the-box. So far the range of official consideration, that has been given to the changes a disc may legitimately undergo, is in the direction from new to beat. The one remedial treatment contemplated under the rules is sanding. That is more about a comfortable grip than it is about returning the disc to its pre-injury condition.

Bent rims and puddled flight plates are desirable modifications for many players. Enthusiasm for these changes is so widespread that players and officials are now ignoring certain rules with impunity. (This leaves to a separate discussion thread the unnatural methodical distortions that are done by persons away from the playing environment.)

Naturally occurring deviations in the flight characteristics of a new disc are not always welcome. With some rather low-tech treatments a disc can be treated so that its progress from new, to beat, to useless, can be reversed. I have a few plates and forms in my basement that can be used in conjunction with a hair-dryer or heat lamp and some bricks so that the distorted discs I have can move back in the direction of their earlier flight characteristics.

I would like to hear what people think about the reasonableness of a realignment treatment, where the effect is to correct undesirable changes. I have read the rules and we can discuss the literal and liberal interpretations in another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FredV View Post
I just got a fairly new disc from the second-hand shelf at a local retailer. It was going to be a replacement (same mold) in case I lose one of my main drivers. During practice I noticed that the new (used) disc does not have the same flight characteristics as my other one. Then I saw that the replacement disc was considerably flatter than my first disc. I’m OK with the difference, as I would use the disc for other throws. If I use the “replacement” disc in a PDGA tournament, people may notice that the so-called twins are different. How can I prove that the disc has not been modified so that its original flight characteristics have been altered?

Since you have 14 posts on the three threads you started about the same topic, I will just combine the three and reply here.

It appears you are a lawyer. It also appears you clearly understand the spirit and intent of the PDGA rules on disc modification. You also realize these rules are not airtight and have lots of loopholes. Most players will simply assume you are following the rules and that all your discs are PDGA legal.


It sounds like you want to modify your discs back to some original ideal, but you are afraid your techniques may be illegal and that you may be caught. Since we are a self-officiating sport, you are automatically caught if you think what you are doing is against the rules.

Most players won't care if you use heat, or boiling water or racks or whatever to get a warped disc to have an even dome or to make it flatter or flat again or domier or whatever. You are more likely to ruin a disc through homemade tuning as you are to improve it.

In short, if you are convinced you are following the rules, your modifications should be fine. If you think what you are doing could be wrong, then it is probably is wrong. You get to be the judge, jury and defendant on this one.
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredV View Post
I just got a fairly new disc from the second-hand shelf at a local retailer. It was going to be a replacement (same mold) in case I lose one of my main drivers. During practice I noticed that the new (used) disc does not have the same flight characteristics as my other one. Then I saw that the replacement disc was considerably flatter than my first disc. I’m OK with the difference, as I would use the disc for other throws. If I use the “replacement” disc in a PDGA tournament, people may notice that the so-called twins are different. How can I prove that the disc has not been modified so that its original flight characteristics have been altered?




It may be time for a new hobby Fred.
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:17 PM
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Discette,
Thank you for spending the energy to go through the exercise needed to deal with my concerns. I broke the issues up into several posts so that people could respond selectively.
You response is the most intuitive and generous I have seen here. My formal education is not in law, it is in fine art (visual). Understanding how disputes between people occur has been part of my informal education. Your advice concerning my own sense of right and wrong, as I consider using a particular disc in competition with others, aligns perfectly with my practices over the last three decades.
My comfort with those practices has not changed; but, I became concerned about the rules recently as I studied them in preparation for the officials examination. My player friends gave me much advice that amounts to, “So what…nobody cares what it says in the rules.” It turns out that I care – so much so that I put out these threads knowing that I would draw the fire of many, but hoping that I would hear from folks with fair-minded intentions (like yourself).
You will see that I am not a regular contributor to these pages and take no joy in getting into a cross exchange with folks. My objective is to get some new thinking into the discussions at PDGA where, perhaps, some of the “get real” views expressed in these threads find a place in the rules.
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredV View Post
Discette,
Thank you for spending the energy to go through the exercise needed to deal with my concerns. I broke the issues up into several posts so that people could respond selectively.
You response is the most intuitive and generous I have seen here. My formal education is not in law, it is in fine art (visual). Understanding how disputes between people occur has been part of my informal education. Your advice concerning my own sense of right and wrong, as I consider using a particular disc in competition with others, aligns perfectly with my practices over the last three decades.
My comfort with those practices has not changed; but, I became concerned about the rules recently as I studied them in preparation for the officials examination. My player friends gave me much advice that amounts to, “So what…nobody cares what it says in the rules.” It turns out that I care – so much so that I put out these threads knowing that I would draw the fire of many, but hoping that I would hear from folks with fair-minded intentions (like yourself).
You will see that I am not a regular contributor to these pages and take no joy in getting into a cross exchange with folks. My objective is to get some new thinking into the discussions at PDGA where, perhaps, some of the “get real” views expressed in these threads find a place in the rules.
Unless you take away all tech standards and allow players to create their own discs, the line between illegal and legal modification has to be legislated. Currently, that line is drawn at "normal wear." As Discette noted, some players are more flexible in their interpretation of that than others. But that problem will always exist, no matter where the line is drawn, you will have some people who choose to step right to, and maybe slightly over the line, while others choose to stay far away from the line to ensure that they are playing within the rules.
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:53 PM
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I am curious as to what rule exactly you are referring to in your original post.

Flight characteristics are simply a point of reference provided by the manufacturer to give you an idea of how it may fly. Given the variance in power levels by players results will vary greatly from player to player. The PDGA does not govern the characteristics of flight, only the measurables of the mold and disc itself. If this disc is within the approved specs and there is no obvious signs of after purchase modification then the disc is approved for play. The PDGA rules don't care if one disc is a meathook and its "twin" is neutral/stable.

Do you also have a problem with weight variances in the same mold? Should a 150 gm Teebird fly the same as a 175 gm Teebird? Are you advocating for a single color, single weight, single plastic type for each disc model? Should all Teebirds be Blue, 175 gms and made in Champion plastic? Or are you simply trolling the Rules thread about something that is not even a PDGA rule?
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:56 PM
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Fred - Sorry if my attempt to summarize your posts was incorrect. I guess I am having trouble understanding exactly what you want to discuss.

Personally, I don't think the rules regarding disc modification need to be firmed up. While they are very general, I think they get the job done. As long as a player is not adding weight to a disc, it is very unlikely any homemade "tuning" process will improve the flight of the disc or provide some type of unfair advantage.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:39 PM
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bradharris,
We may only disagree about whether something ought to be done concerning the rules.

Cooperation in rulemaking is a necessary part of any sporting competition. That cooperation begins with a mutual recognition of the fairness principles and the parameters of the game. When uncertainty concerning the application of a rule exists we have our common instincts for fairness and the meaning of success in competition to guide us. We should still have well-crafted rules that can be read by the full range of players, where even the most compliant ready competitor has the same range of play as some other player who would sooner ignore the rule. This is all about looking at what is happening today and, where it is clear that people have effectively dismissed a rule, then move the line to a place where all can see it.
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  #20  
Old 03-18-2016, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredV View Post
it is clear that people have effectively dismissed a rule
This is not clear to me. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite.

It's clear that you think there is a problem with the rule as it stands. So there are two options, remove it entirely or modify it in some way. So which solution do you prefer? If the latter, would modifications would you suggest?
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