#11  
Old 10-04-2013, 09:45 AM
iacas's Avatar
iacas iacas is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Erie, PA
Years Playing: 6.7
Courses Played: 31
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,737
Niced 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New013 View Post
I don't see how every player on the card having their own group scorecard is so much more effort and pointless than one player keeping his and another players score. You're writing down two more numbers per hole, that literally takes like 5 extra seconds per hole or a minute and a half per round.
And whose card do you turn in at the end? Nobody's going to check ALL of the scores - they'll just check their own on the official card; the one they decide to turn in (the one with the neatest handwriting?). That gives that guy 18 holes to shave a few strokes here and there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
The downside is simply that it's more effort and bother. Not a huge amount of either, but you can't completely dismiss it.
One Card Cycled: 4 scores * 4.5 holes = 18 scores
One Card Permanent: 2 scores * 18 holes = 36 scores

I'm not sure which you meant was more effort, but writing down your score and your opponent's score is "more scores" to write down, except that:
a) nobody can pencil whip
b) you're getting to keep track of YOUR scores (though you don't have to, reducing that to 18).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
It's a bit of a solution without a problem. In the prevalent system, the pencil-whipper only has 4 or 5 holes to do his damage, which can make it pretty obvious, and if anyone suspects a problem they have several options to cross-check the scorecard (such as keeping a separate, unofficial card).
IMO, even shaving one or two strokes (which wouldn't be obvious) is a problem. Over multiple rounds a pencil whipper can move up several spots, especially if he "forgets" to turn the card over for six or seven holes instead of after four or five.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
The vast majority of tournament players are Ams, or Pros in lower-tier events, where the effect of someone shaving a couple of strokes would be a small gain in plastic or cash. Perhaps in Pro divisions at higher tier events, where a lot more is at stake, the extra effort is justified.
I see it as more than that. I don't know that I'll ever play a tournament for the prizes. I play to have fun and see how I can play relative to others. Someone who shoots three better than me over three rounds but actually shot three worse than me misrepresents the truth. It soils the integrity of the sport.

That matters more to me than whether I get a few less Silly Bucks or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agricolae View Post
It's really easy, as Scarp pointed out: After arriving at the next tee, players huddle up and the scorekeeper calls out each players name, in order as listed on the card, including his/her own. Player responds with their score on the previous hole. Scorekeeper repeats out loud the player's score, including his/her own, while marking it on the card. Scorekeeper then announces the throwing order for the current hole.
And that's one of the reasons slow play is an issue. Yes, you can say it takes ten seconds, but that's only when everyone's there waiting on the tee.

With one score to keep, you can write it down whenever. If there's a question, you can ask them as you walk to the next tee, or even as you're walking off that tee. Plus I've never been confused about order of play from the next teebox.
Sponsored Links

Last edited by iacas; 10-04-2013 at 09:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-04-2013, 09:55 AM
jongoff09's Avatar
jongoff09 jongoff09 is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Central Arkansas
Years Playing: 9.8
Courses Played: 33
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,877
Niced 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

I've always thought that golf had a better way for score keeping than DG. It was mentioned earlier and I agree that having at least 2 cards for the group is better than just one.

I'd like to see it done like golf. I think I'll start keeping score for the entire group on my phone from now on. It's not that I think anyone would pencil-whip, but I just like the idea of having something to reference if there is a dispute at the end
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-04-2013, 09:57 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.2
Courses Played: 144
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,031
Niced 2,505 Times in 1,053 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agricolae View Post
^^Agreed. If a player has to ask the scorekeeper, "Hey, you got me down for a 2 on the last hole, right?", or, "What did YOU get on the last hole?", or, "You counted the OB penalty, right?", there's a problem.

It's really easy, as Scarp pointed out: After arriving at the next tee, players huddle up and the scorekeeper calls out each players name, in order as listed on the card, including his/her own. Player responds with their score on the previous hole. Scorekeeper repeats out loud the player's score, including his/her own, while marking it on the card. Scorekeeper then announces the throwing order for the current hole.
That's what the rules say we are supposed to do. Sadly, it's just another rule book thing that most players let slide.

The method of giving every player a scorecard and having them keep score for every player in the group is the one method I've witnessed in which the rule book rule for scorekeeping is most closely adhered to. Every time I've played a tournament that employed that scoring method, the group never failed to get the scorecards out and take proper scores after every hole. And everyone had to participate since everyone had to write it down.

It also made adding up and double checking scores at the end of the round easier. Everyone added their own and if all the numbers matched, we were good. No chasing down one member of the group who bolts for the parking lot in order to give him his chance to check the card, no looking over each other's shoulders as we try to confirm one player's addition versus another's.

All that said, as good and flawless as I feel that method is, I wouldn't necessarily advocate that all tournaments use it all the time. The other common methods, specifically one card per group or one player holding individual cards for the whole group, work just fine. Unless pencil-whipping or stroke-shaving becomes much more rampant, I don't think there's really a "wrong" or poor method to keep score in this game.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-04-2013, 09:58 AM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 23.7
Courses Played: 125
Posts: 14,589
Niced 2,456 Times in 1,160 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
One Card Cycled: 4 scores * 4.5 holes = 18 scores
One Card Permanent: 2 scores * 18 holes = 36 scores

I'm not sure which you meant was more effort, but writing down your score and your opponent's score is "more scores" to write down, except that:
a) nobody can pencil whip
b) you're getting to keep track of YOUR scores (though you don't have to, reducing that to 18).
As to the "effort", as evidenced by players' actions, they prefer the simplest workable solution. And that is one card, one person on each hole responsible for scores. Yes, it's a small difference. But I'll bet enough that, given the choice, most players will choose it.

No debate that your suggestions would be more secure against pencil-whipping. I think the feeling would be, in most situations, pencil-whipping is so rare as to not be a concern.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-04-2013, 10:41 AM
iacas's Avatar
iacas iacas is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Erie, PA
Years Playing: 6.7
Courses Played: 31
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,737
Niced 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The method of giving every player a scorecard and having them keep score for every player in the group is the one method I've witnessed in which the rule book rule for scorekeeping is most closely adhered to. Every time I've played a tournament that employed that scoring method, the group never failed to get the scorecards out and take proper scores after every hole. And everyone had to participate since everyone had to write it down.
That's still prone to pencil whipping. Nobody checks EVERY score. People will just check their own, and make sure it's right. So whoever has the "official" card can shave a stroke or two pretty easily.

Plus it's quite a bit more (wasted) effort and slows down play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The other common methods, specifically one card per group or one player holding individual cards for the whole group, work just fine. Unless pencil-whipping or stroke-shaving becomes much more rampant, I don't think there's really a "wrong" or poor method to keep score in this game.
How about the golf method: one player has the other player's scorecard with a strip at the bottom to write their own scores down?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
As to the "effort", as evidenced by players' actions, they prefer the simplest workable solution. And that is one card, one person on each hole responsible for scores. Yes, it's a small difference. But I'll bet enough that, given the choice, most players will choose it.

No debate that your suggestions would be more secure against pencil-whipping. I think the feeling would be, in most situations, pencil-whipping is so rare as to not be a concern.
Given the downsides, I wouldn't choose the current methods (that's why I started the thread after all ). I don't know that you're right in your estimation that most people would choose it, either, if given the choice. They're writing down the same 18 scores, but they're also given the option and space to write down THEIR scores so they can DIRECTLY compare them later, AND they're given the option to write the scores down when they want. In golf if you putt out first you'll often write your score down and then when your "scoree" finishes you write his score down and put the card in your pocket. You arrive at the next tee ready to play, not waiting on everyone else and then going through the "Bob? Four. Charlie? Three. Steve? Six. Curt? Four." rigamarole.

It's not just pencil whipping their own scores, either - for 13.5 of the holes, someone can be pencil whipping YOU, because you're not really writing down your own scores unless you do so on your phone (which might violate the Rules, doesn't it? You could have a GPS app on there… or maybe that was changed in 2013…?), a scrap piece of paper, etc.

I realize the advantages and disadvantages aren't really large, but it's also a relatively simple, small, easy change, and I'd still like to see disc golf move in that direction: A's card is kept by B, B's by C, C's by D, and D's by A. (Note that it's not like A and B swap while C and D swap - any mutual stroke-shaving would require FOUR people to be on board, not just two people who might be friends or something.)

The consensus seems to agree.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-04-2013, 10:58 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.2
Courses Played: 144
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,031
Niced 2,505 Times in 1,053 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
That's still prone to pencil whipping. Nobody checks EVERY score. People will just check their own, and make sure it's right. So whoever has the "official" card can shave a stroke or two pretty easily.

Plus it's quite a bit more (wasted) effort and slows down play.
Every scorecard is "official". They ALL get turned in. The TD checking scores can glance at all 3 or 4 at once, see the scores match, then only have to check the math on one of them. At the last tourney I played that used this, the TD I spoke with after the tournament ended said dealing with the cards that weekend was the easiest time he's had verifying scores. Zero discrepancies and zero scoring errors.

And play wasn't slowed down in the least. Scoring took the same 10 seconds at the tee it should ALWAYS take if the rules are followed. And usually, in larger events in particular, that time is spent waiting for the hole in front to clear anyway. It's idle time that isn't really going to be saved by speeding up the score keeping process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
How about the golf method: one player has the other player's scorecard with a strip at the bottom to write their own scores down?
I've done that too. Didn't find it any better or worse than any other method. The downside, IMO, is that if you're only responsible for one other player's score, you're not as likely to pay attention to the other 1-3 players you're on the course with. If players are responsible for taking everyone's score, they'll be more inclined to watch everyone for rules compliance.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-04-2013, 11:04 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.2
Courses Played: 144
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,031
Niced 2,505 Times in 1,053 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
It's not just pencil whipping their own scores, either - for 13.5 of the holes, someone can be pencil whipping YOU, because you're not really writing down your own scores unless you do so on your phone (which might violate the Rules, doesn't it? You could have a GPS app on there… or maybe that was changed in 2013…?), a scrap piece of paper, etc.
Absolutely 100% untrue. First, phones are legal (as are GPS as of the last rules revision). Second, lots of players keep a card for their own score. I've been doing it for years. Mainly I do it for my own record keeping, but it also serves as a back-up for the "official" card. Even if I'm not actually keeping score for the whole group, it can at least appear like I am, which might give a potential pencil-whipper pause (at least, that's what I like to tell myself).

Incidentally, in the event I mentioned that used individual cards to be kept for all players in the group, I played two of the three rounds with a guy who was using his phone to keep score for all of us in addition to the paper cards. And it didn't slow pace of play down in the least (we were probably the third or fourth group done out of 22.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-04-2013, 11:53 AM
iacas's Avatar
iacas iacas is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Erie, PA
Years Playing: 6.7
Courses Played: 31
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,737
Niced 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Every scorecard is "official". They ALL get turned in. The TD checking scores can glance at all 3 or 4 at once, see the scores match, then only have to check the math on one of them. At the last tourney I played that used this, the TD I spoke with after the tournament ended said dealing with the cards that weekend was the easiest time he's had verifying scores.
One card per player rather than four per player would be easier still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
And play wasn't slowed down in the least. Scoring took the same 10 seconds at the tee it should ALWAYS take if the rules are followed. And usually, in larger events in particular, that time is spent waiting for the hole in front to clear anyway. It's idle time that isn't really going to be saved by speeding up the score keeping process.
You and I both know that's not truly the case. First you've gotta wait for everyone to get on the tee, get their pencils out, get their cards out, etc. It doesn't take ten seconds.

Plus everyone's writing down four numbers, rather than two. Ignoring the time difference (because it's negligible), there's more chances to put the wrong score in the wrong box, mis-hear a score, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I've done that too. Didn't find it any better or worse than any other method. The downside, IMO, is that if you're only responsible for one other player's score, you're not as likely to pay attention to the other 1-3 players you're on the course with. If players are responsible for taking everyone's score, they'll be more inclined to watch everyone for rules compliance.
That's their responsibility already, and it doesn't seem to be an issue in golf - they are obligated to "protect the field."

Besides, if your argument was true, then that's another argument against the way it's most commonly done now: with one card for the group, by your logic, only one person is really ensuring compliance (the person with the card for that hole).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Absolutely 100% untrue. First, phones are legal (as are GPS as of the last rules revision).
I said that may be the case…

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Second, lots of players keep a card for their own score.
But ask yourself this: why do they keep their own scores? Because the current method of scoring is in need of improvement. They're having to keep their own scorecard because they aren't just given a little row of boxes on a perforated tear-away sheet on another player's card.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:00 PM
bradharris's Avatar
bradharris bradharris is offline
Team Borderland
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Loudoun County
Years Playing: 15.9
Courses Played: 87
Posts: 5,219
Niced 40 Times in 27 Posts
Default

The currently accepted system of one card per group is certainly not ideal. There are definitely better ways to do it. And no TD is restricted from doing things differently.

The current method is not so bad that the PDGA needs to step in and mandate an alternative though.

If you want to see changes in tournaments you play in, take it up with those TDs.
Reply With Quote
 

  #20  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:19 PM
iacas's Avatar
iacas iacas is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Erie, PA
Years Playing: 6.7
Courses Played: 31
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,737
Niced 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradharris View Post
If you want to see changes in tournaments you play in, take it up with those TDs.
I hardly play enough tournaments to have much of an effect.

I posted here for two reasons:
  1. To have a discussion (perhaps there were some very good reasons for keeping it the way it is)
  2. To reach far more people and far more TDs than I could on my own.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Digital Scorekeeping Chaser90EK Tournaments & Leagues 3 06-13-2017 01:43 AM
Scorekeeping wb247 Discs 5 08-13-2011 11:15 PM
Putting and Scorekeeping runnaman General Disc Golf Chat 18 04-23-2009 09:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.