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Old 10-04-2013, 12:22 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
One card per player rather than four per player would be easier still.
Who's talking about anything different? The method I've described here is ONE scorecard per player on which he/she scores each of the other members of the group. At the end of the round all 4 scorecards (or 3 for a threesome or 5 for a fivesome) are turned in. All are "official" and all should match before they're turned in.


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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
You and I both know that's not truly the case. First you've gotta wait for everyone to get on the tee, get their pencils out, get their cards out, etc. It doesn't take ten seconds.
Something that you have to do regardless so why is it included in the equation? From the time everyone is at the tee, getting pencils and cards out and taking down the scores doesn't take more than 10 seconds.

But really, with this time argument, you are really REALLY nitpicking. Scorekeeping is not an arduous task. On the list of things that could be done to speed up a tournament round, making the act of scorekeeping faster is waaaaaay down the list. No group that is causing two and three groups to back up behind them or coming in 25-30 minutes after everyone else is doing so because they're taking too much time to keep score.

Everyone keeping everyone else's score isn't any more time consuming than your suggestion of A keeps B, B keeps C, C keeps D, etc.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:47 PM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Who's talking about anything different?
I'm talking about how many cards have the player's official scores on them, not how many cards any player is carrying around. If every player is keeping score for every other player, that's four players per card. I'm suggesting one player per card.

B has A's card, C has B's, etc. That's what "one player per card" meant - one card has A's scores, one has B's, one has C's, and one has D's.

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The method I've described here is ONE scorecard per player on which he/she scores each of the other members of the group. At the end of the round all 4 scorecards (or 3 for a threesome or 5 for a fivesome) are turned in. All are "official" and all should match before they're turned in.
IMO it adds almost nothing but "cons." (Negligibly) slower, more complications for the TD, more chances for mix-ups, etc.

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Something that you have to do regardless so why is it included in the equation?
That's not true at all. I don't wait for everyone to get on the next teebox. I see Carl scores a four on the hole, I also get a 4, and I write the scores down whenever I want, often as soon as I putt out.

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
On the list of things that could be done to speed up a tournament round, making the act of scorekeeping faster is waaaaaay down the list.
I agree. Look at the OP, though - I barely mentioned time. It's not a big part of the reason I think this should change. It wasn't even one of the bullet points. (The third could be taken that way, but I wasn't thinking about the time when I wrote the third bullet point; I was thinking more how it might mess with someone's routine or something.)

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Everyone keeping everyone else's score isn't any more time consuming than your suggestion of A keeps B, B keeps C, C keeps D, etc.
Yes it is. We can agree that it's negligible, but not that it's "none."
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:59 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
That's not true at all. I don't wait for everyone to get on the next teebox. I see Carl scores a four on the hole, I also get a 4, and I write the scores down whenever I want, often as soon as I putt out.
I can't stand when people do that. Scoring around the basket is really frustrating to the people waiting on the tee for you to finish. It also allows for a lot more mistakes when you're not having everyone announce their scores for the group to double check. I've been in situations a few times where the player and the scorekeeper both think that player got one score, and the rest of us had to walk them through the hole to remind them of a forgotten stroke. If the scoring is silent and happening haphazardly whenever someone putts out you lose that accountability.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:05 PM
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Dave242 Dave242 is offline
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Originally Posted by scarpfish View Post
Dealing with a dishonest or imbecilic scorekeeper is seldom a problem. That is until you come upon one.
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
It's a bit of a solution without a problem. In the prevalent system, the pencil-whipper only has 4 or 5 holes to do his damage, which can make it pretty obvious, and if anyone suspects a problem they have several options to cross-check the scorecard (such as keeping a separate, unofficial card).

The vast majority of tournament players are Ams, or Pros in lower-tier events, where the effect of someone shaving a couple of strokes would be a small gain in plastic or cash. Perhaps in Pro divisions at higher tier events, where a lot more is at stake, the extra effort is justified.
The way I see it, is that making a bigger deal out of the pencil-whippers is based on the assumption that there are lots of cheaters out there.

I reject that assumption......and I think that assumption is a negative for the culture of DG.

In all my years of being around tournaments, I have known less than 5 cases where there has been cheating by scorecard manipulation. In each case the cheater was so mercilessly taunted, that they left the sport (at least organized competition).

While I think it is unfair to run people out of the game and not give them a chance to change/grow/repent, I think the vigilante justice system we have in place is much more in keeping with the whole vibe of DG. After all, it is a very small community of golfers who play for cash money in organized events....they all know each other.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:10 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I realize the advantages and disadvantages aren't really large, but it's also a relatively simple, small, easy change, and I'd still like to see disc golf move in that direction.....
This goes to the very limited extent of my discussions. You said there are no "downsides"; I say there are "downsides", however minor, and the burden is to convince people that the advantages are worth the disadvantages. Otherwise, I'm inclined to stick with the simplest method.

Sidebar question: How do you make perforated strips on scorecards? We produce our scorecards on an office printer, so I'm not sure we could use that particular feature.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:13 PM
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Sidebar question: How do you make perforated strips on scorecards? We produce our scorecards on an office printer, so I'm not sure we could use that particular feature.
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:14 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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IMO it adds almost nothing but "cons." (Negligibly) slower, more complications for the TD, more chances for mix-ups, etc.
As someone who has played over a dozen tournaments utilizing the method and has run a tournament using it as well, I can tell you that it is NOT slower (at least in the sense that it does not slow the flow of the tournament down in the least), it is NOT more complicated for the TD (as I've already stated, one TD I talked to proclaimed it to be the easiest time he's had verifying scores, and this is a TD with 15+ years of experience), and there have been zero mix-ups.

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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I don't wait for everyone to get on the next teebox. I see Carl scores a four on the hole, I also get a 4, and I write the scores down whenever I want, often as soon as I putt out.
The problem with this method is that it fails to comply with the PDGA rulebook mandated procedure for scorekeeping. The rule dictates that the scores be called aloud for all players in the group to hear. If you're writing down a four for Carl but not announcing it, whether just to Carl or to the group, what happens if he really scored a five? Or a three?

I'm not just talking about instances in which you or someone else is intentionally pencil-whipping either. What happens if you genuinely thought he had a four when he did not? You innocently write the wrong score down but there's no checks and balances. Sure, at the end of the round your scorecard won't match the one Carl is keeping for himself but then you've got a he said/he said situation. Are the other group members going to remember the sequence of events on the fourth hole of the round that was played two hours previous? Not necessarily. But they might if the error is caught and corrected on the course immediately after it happens.
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2013, 01:50 PM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
I can't stand when people do that. Scoring around the basket is really frustrating to the people waiting on the tee for you to finish.
You've really misunderstood what I've said. I'll putt out, grab my disc, walk 50 feet towards the next tee pad, and write the score down. I'm off the green and I've already got my scorecard put away by the time everyone putts out.

Really though I've never done that in disc golf because we've never had a scorekeeping situation like golf. I'll putt out, grab my ball, walk to the edge of the green, write the scores down, wait for others to finish, and walk or drive to the next tee box (golf). If I'm last to putt out I'll write my score down at the next convenient point that won't hold anyone up. Typically, as you know, that's on the next tee box.

I do NOT linger near the basket or hole. I'm one of the fastest golfers I know, and my habits carry over to disc golf - setting your bag down in the direction of the next tee pad, etc.

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Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
It also allows for a lot more mistakes when you're not having everyone announce their scores for the group to double check.
No, it doesn't. You're only responsible for keeping one score, and if you're not sure, you ask and get the clarification. I've never had or seen a scoring issue like this with the "one player per card" scoring system I've been talking about in hundreds of golf tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Dave242 View Post
In all my years of being around tournaments, I have known less than 5 cases where there has been cheating by scorecard manipulation. In each case the cheater was so mercilessly taunted, that they left the sport (at least organized competition).
To be fair, those only account for the ones you know about.

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
You said there are no "downsides"; I say there are "downsides", however minor, and the burden is to convince people that the advantages are worth the disadvantages. Otherwise, I'm inclined to stick with the simplest method.
Your method (four players on four cards) is not the simplest, and I've yet to hear of any downsides for A -> B -> C -> D -> A.

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Sidebar question: How do you make perforated strips on scorecards? We produce our scorecards on an office printer, so I'm not sure we could use that particular feature.
FWIW you don't need to actually have a perforated strip - that just makes things even *easier*. Some will just include a "scorer" strip for the scorekeeper to mark his own scores. Then he just holds that card up to his card and matches the scores.

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
As someone who has played over a dozen tournaments utilizing the method and has run a tournament using it as well, I can tell you that it is NOT slower (at least in the sense that it does not slow the flow of the tournament down in the least), it is NOT more complicated for the TD (as I've already stated, one TD I talked to proclaimed it to be the easiest time he's had verifying scores, and this is a TD with 15+ years of experience), and there have been zero mix-ups.
You've not tried it the other way, so you don't really have anything to compare it to.

Furthermore, the ease of rearranging groups when the scorecards are for the individual is simpler. It's easier. They can be done before the tournament even begins.

And good luck convincing me that four scorecards per foursome with four players scores on them are easier to handle than one scorecard per player with just their scores on them.

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The problem with this method is that it fails to comply with the PDGA rulebook mandated procedure for scorekeeping.
No kidding. So it'd require a change to the rules for scorekeeping, and I'm suggesting that such a change would be for the better. It'd eliminate the cons in the OP while not adding any new cons (I haven't seen any valid cons yet).

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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
What happens if you genuinely thought he had a four when he did not? You innocently write the wrong score down but there's no checks and balances.
You do realize this is how golf has done it for decades and there haven't been many issues at all, right? You just ask the person if you're unclear about their score. If there's a discrepancy at the end of the round, you clear it up. A golfer is responsible for his own score, and if you write down 4 and he has himself scoring a 5, he takes the 5. They're honest.

I'm typically not a big fan of "experiential" evidence, but the "experience" level in scorekeeping this way in golf is pretty vast.

Last edited by iacas; 10-04-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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  #29  
Old 10-04-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
You've really misunderstood what I've said. I'll putt out, grab my disc, walk 50 feet towards the next tee pad, and write the score down. I'm off the green and I've already got my scorecard put away by the time everyone putts out.

No, it doesn't. You're only responsible for keeping one score, and if you're not sure, you ask and get the clarification. I've never had or seen a scoring issue like this with the "one player per card" scoring system I've been talking about in hundreds of golf tournaments.
Great, but what about the other people? Whoever the last person is to putt out still has to write down scores, as does whoever is scoring him. Like you say, often the most convenient place for that is the next tee. It's not saving any time.

Also, you missed where I told you about multiple personal experiences of mine where the scorekeeper and player both agreed on a score that was wrong. If the rest of the group doesn't get to hear the score, they can't double check things like that.

I'm not arguing with the way you want to do cards, it sounds like a fine alternative. I'm arguing against your procedural change to get rid of players all announcing their scores when everyone on the card can hear and double check them.
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2013, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post

But ask yourself this: why do they keep their own scores? Because the current method of scoring is in need of improvement. They're having to keep their own scorecard because they aren't just given a little row of boxes on a perforated tear-away sheet on another player's card.
I think JC answered this earlier. I do it to have a record of how I shot on each hole, to identify my weaknesses and strengths during and after the tournament. As a bonus, it allows me to catch possible errors on the group scorecard and, occasionally, on my own.

Im not implying or arguing that golf doesn't have a good system. I wonder though (and I might not understand the system correctly), does anyone ever ask, "Hey, I'm really sorry but what did you get on the last 3 holes? I spaced out and forgot to write them down."

I like the group huddle for scores. It's a good review for all to see and hear of how everyone shot. I've seen quite a few cases in AdvGM division where a player will inadvertently give himself an extra stroke and the group reminds him, "Hey dude, you *birdied* that hole!" Also, it's good to review applicable penalty strokes, particularly on longer, more difficult holes.

And, to address one of your other comments, I often see us have to take an extra moment to determine throwing order for the next hole.

I will not dispute that the group huddle for score and order can take 15 to even 30 seconds.

Last edited by Agricolae; 10-04-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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