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Old 05-15-2020, 03:13 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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I've seen lots of posts/videos giving suggestions on how to improve. I've gone through a bunch of YouTube videos and posts on this site in my search for a better game. And I've finally learned the real "secret".

I'm not those other people....I'm not Nate Sexton, Paul McBeth, Simon Lizotte, or anyone else on this site or on YouTube. I'm me - a 60 year old male, 6 ft 1 in, 187 pounds, with scoliosis causing one leg to be about 1/16th inch shorter than the other...and yes that does make a difference in my balance. My scoliosis also means I can bend farther to the right side, than I can to the left. So I have my own abilities.

Nate Sexton put it well in one of his videos. He is explaining grip and holds his right hand up. He says (something like this) - This is MY hand and this is my grip....your hand is different than mine and your grip may need to be different.

Wow...that should be applied to every part of the throw. One person's grip, reach back, throw, follow-through, stance (standstill, walk-up, run-up) will be different from everyone else.

So why watch videos and get advice from others? It gives you a place to start from. Listen to advice from others and watch the videos....but find out what works best for the 'you that you are'. Don't expect to mimic Paul McBeth and have the same results - you aren't him.

It's taken me too long to realize that fact, but once I figured it out my throws have started improving because I found what worked for ME.
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:43 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
I've seen lots of posts/videos giving suggestions on how to improve. I've gone through a bunch of YouTube videos and posts on this site in my search for a better game. And I've finally learned the real "secret".

I'm not those other people....I'm not Nate Sexton, Paul McBeth, Simon Lizotte, or anyone else on this site or on YouTube. I'm me - a 60 year old male, 6 ft 1 in, 187 pounds, with scoliosis causing one leg to be about 1/16th inch shorter than the other...and yes that does make a difference in my balance. My scoliosis also means I can bend farther to the right side, than I can to the left. So I have my own abilities.

Nate Sexton put it well in one of his videos. He is explaining grip and holds his right hand up. He says (something like this) - This is MY hand and this is my grip....your hand is different than mine and your grip may need to be different.

Wow...that should be applied to every part of the throw. One person's grip, reach back, throw, follow-through, stance (standstill, walk-up, run-up) will be different from everyone else.

So why watch videos and get advice from others? It gives you a place to start from. Listen to advice from others and watch the videos....but find out what works best for the 'you that you are'. Don't expect to mimic Paul McBeth and have the same results - you aren't him.

It's taken me too long to realize that fact, but once I figured it out my throws have started improving because I found what worked for ME.
Bill you hit on something important -- every person's body is different. I'll relate it in this story.

I do teach disc golf a lot. I am a 59-yr-old 6'5 overweight former college baseball player, limited by my lifelong lack of flexibility (everywhere -- I can't even sit with my legs crossed, never could), and arthritis causing one knee to already be replaced, a shoulder having been repaired from rotator cuff injury, and another knee needing replacement -- but I digress.

One key thing I teach in my putting clinics, which I am asked a lot, is to extend and open up your hand aiming with the single middle finger. The reason -- the middle finger is the longest, so on a putt where you a little less of a "hit" than a drive, the disc clearly will come off that finger last. That is the longest finger. At one clinic, one very, very good player, a guy who actually had called to request I do the clinic for his club, he just couldn't get it. He kept saying it's not working when I try to do that. After a few iterations, I worked myself over to work individually with him, so I ask to see his grip and voila! there it is. I never would have thought about this had I not seen it with my own eyes, but his pointer finger was actually longer than his middle finger. Once we found that out, I told him, a simple modification for you -- you need to aim with your pointer finger. He did and all was great. But, like you say Bill it just goes to show, some things are the basis of what you need to do; you've got to adapt it to your own body and abilities.

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Old 05-15-2020, 04:24 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
One key thing I teach in my putting clinics, which I am asked a lot, is to extend and open up your hand aiming with the single middle finger. The reason -- the middle finger is the longest, so on a putt where you a little less of a "hit" than a drive, the disc clearly will come off that finger last.
I never thought of that. I've been trying to leave my hand pointed at the basket, like I'm shaking hands with it, and that has been 'hit or miss'. <pun intended>.

I'm going to have to try what you teach and see if that helps me improve. I'll let you know how it goes.

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Old 05-15-2020, 04:58 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Nate Sexton put it well in one of his videos. He is explaining grip and holds his right hand up. He says (something like this) - This is MY hand and this is my grip....your hand is different than mine and your grip may need to be different.

Wow...that should be applied to every part of the throw. One person's grip, reach back, throw, follow-through, stance (standstill, walk-up, run-up) will be different from everyone else.

So why watch videos and get advice from others? It gives you a place to start from. Listen to advice from others and watch the videos....but find out what works best for the 'you that you are'. Don't expect to mimic Paul McBeth and have the same results - you aren't him.
Yes and no? I think this is a reason that posting video and letting the few here help is so much more beneficial than maybe self teaching off general tutorial videos and god forbid Reddit/Facebook where you are bombarded with answers from those who seem to just regurgitating what they've heard but don't seem to understand what they are saying.

Someone like SW22 does a pretty good job of taking the biomechanical ideal form and tweaking the idea and finding film of people who more closely match your body type and movement.

an example -
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Climo naturally stands duck footed. Feldberg naturally stands more inline. Some people are naturally pigeon toed. This is why you can't carbon copy players. You must adjust your stance for your own natural hip flexibility to allow for maximum mobility.

I recommend starting your stance just like of SC talks about in Purpose of the Hips, lift your legs one at a time and let your foot/feet hang naturally into place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6Oylh4t8G8

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Old 05-15-2020, 05:54 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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From my PSA sticky in the form analysis section:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=126516

4. Best Form Models:

- You are best off modeling your own unique form from top pros that are physically built similar to you. You can still learn things from all the top throwers, the basic fundamentals are all there, but don't get caught up trying to mimic only one particular pro. Some pros are easier to mimic than others, and some pros do things I wouldn't advise/make it harder to learn or is a more advanced move.

- I've taken little pieces of form from numerous top pros and adapted them into my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lee
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.

Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.

If you always put limits on everything you do, physical or anything else, it will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.

Don't fear failure. — Not failure, but low aim is the crime. In great attempts it is glorious even to fail.

A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves simply as something to aim at.

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Old 05-15-2020, 06:11 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
Yes and no? I think this is a reason that posting video and letting the few here help is so much more beneficial than maybe self teaching off general tutorial videos and god forbid Reddit/Facebook where you are bombarded with answers from those who seem to just regurgitating what they've heard but don't seem to understand what they are saying.

Someone like SW22 does a pretty good job of taking the biomechanical ideal form and tweaking the idea and finding film of people who more closely match your body type and movement.

an example -
I agree...and I never said "don't watch videos and don't take advice". I said to use it as a starting point. Believe me, I've watched lots of videos and read lots of advice, some has come in handy - BUT, I learned the best when I realized that all the videos and advice needed to be adapted to me. So I take what I can from what I learn and use it to figure out what works for me. In fact, if you read the previous post from Araytx, there's a comment about putting and in my follow-up I said I'm going to try that. Might not work, might work, or I might have to 'tweak' it for me.

My main point was that just because you see someone do something a certain way, doesn't mean it will work for you. Learn from it and if needed, tweak it to work for you.
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Old 05-15-2020, 08:53 PM
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WeatherWimp WeatherWimp is offline
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Astute observation and I agree you must adapt the instructions you fine on YouTube and elsewhere to your own idiosyncracies. I've come to similar thoughts during the last month, realizing I can't step as far as pro's do and never will, my hips are not as flexible, etc.

But to add to your point, even the YouTube instructions differ in polar opposites sometimes. I could swear I just watched a video last week where Feldberg said to keep your head down, yet in the link sidewinder22 posted above it says to not keep your head down during a dynamic throw. I realize the truth is likely somewhere in between, but that is opposite advice.

And it isn't even just between what different people say to do, but the same person over the years. I think Feldberg would be an example. Some of his early stuff he changed later on. And Danny Lindahl even has a mocking of himself throwing "wrong" as he sees it now (turning too far away from the lie and looking behind you) from a previous video.

These may not be drastic, but I also think illustrates you need to pick and chose what works best for you and your abilities at this moment in time.
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Old 05-16-2020, 01:46 AM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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But to add to your point, even the YouTube instructions differ in polar opposites sometimes. I could swear I just watched a video last week where Feldberg said to keep your head down, yet in the link sidewinder22 posted above it says to not keep your head down during a dynamic throw. I realize the truth is likely somewhere in between, but that is opposite advice.
I would beware of Feldberg's teaching "keep the head down", it is flawed on many levels in that vid. It may actually give you some initial positive results like it did for me, but also gave me negative long term results/injury. It's a bandaid fix for a lower body condition that needs stitches from the ground up, not the head or top down as he says. The appearance of the head staying down/still is an effect of the lower body working properly causing the effect or illusion, and if you actually look at most of the top throwers they don't appear to be trying to keep the head down at all especially in real speed and the split second it takes to throw.

David Wiggins Jr - "Keep your Head Up" - so obviously his intention is not to keep the head down. He's trying to keep his head up, but it the massive G-forces working on him during the swing make it appear like he is trying to keep the head down. Ever been in a Gravitron ride? Trying to keep my head up and moving with the spine and disc is the only reason I'm still playing and throwing even further than before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywEyfD1zTtQ&t=6m44s

Golf.com - "Keep your head down is the absolute worst advice to give."
https://golf.com/instruction/golf-fa...dvice-to-give/

Golf Magazine instructor of the decade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQYlMf2fpIY&t=1m

"Why did Nicklaus say you used to hold his hair to get him to keep his head still? Because we have just been talking golf for a couple hours now and you have not mentioned any thing of the sorts, in fact you and Sam teach the same way, that it’s impossible to have a great golf swing and keep the head still."
http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2008/04...k-grouts-sake/

Looks like GG is trying to watch the disc.


Dave demonstrating exactly what those PGA instructors say is bad - head dropping:




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Old 05-16-2020, 07:19 AM
deyo7 deyo7 is offline
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post

David Wiggins Jr - "Keep your Head Up" - so obviously his intention is not to keep the head down. He's trying to keep his head up, but it the massive G-forces working on him during the swing make it appear like he is trying to keep the head down. Ever been in a Gravitron ride? Trying to keep my head up and moving with the spine and disc is the only reason I'm still playing and throwing even further than before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywEyfD1zTtQ&t=6m44s
Interesting that David Wiggins intentionally tries to keep head up. Makes total sense. I've been noticing that my head naturally sort of hangs forward, or down in front of my chest, slowing my rotation. I'm going to try this.
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Old 05-16-2020, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post

David Wiggins Jr - "Keep your Head Up" - so obviously his intention is not to keep the head down.
Thanks...I do see your point on the heads up and agree. I think something else Feldberg and other videos has mentioned is that from the reach out/back that your hips start rotating first, then shoulder, then elbow.

I started trying to do this hips leading my weight shift and pulling my extended disc forward first, followed by arm but I'm thinking that is how I may have injured myself...my right ribs and below my shoulder bland in my back have been hurting for a few weeks. Amazing how painful rib pain can be, I'm assuming it is intercostal strain and slowly getting better.

But in the Wiggins video you linked he also said at one point you are pulling through at the same time https://youtu.be/ywEyfD1zTtQ?t=667 and that certainly makes more sense to me...the weight shift, hips rotation, and arm pulling through straight are in sync at the same time.

I started my path on improving my throw this spring by watching a ton of youtube videos, and came to a similar conclusion as the OP and you have said in this thread ... that I need to tailor bits and pieces of them to my abilities. I think I need to now start working down the long list of links in the instructional videos sticky here as well to add to my thought process.

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