#141  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:46 AM
Smigles Smigles is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
Whoa whoa whoa, you’re telling me it’s easier to tell if someone’s toe touched the ground before release on a step put than if they took a jump put inside the circle? Is it Opposite Day and nobody told me??
Did i say anything about inside the circle vs outside the circle? That's called a strawman, isn't it? Jump putting inside the circle is clearly illegal and nobody is talking about that except you.



You can illegaly jump putt too, you know? If your supporting point is leaving the ground before release, you know?

And yes, it is IMO easier to see if the leading foot on a step putt touched the ground before release than if your foot left the ground before release.
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  #142  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:28 AM
DoWork DoWork is offline
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Originally Posted by Smigles View Post
Did i say anything about inside the circle vs outside the circle? That's called a strawman, isn't it? Jump putting inside the circle is clearly illegal and nobody is talking about that except you.



You can illegaly jump putt too, you know? If your supporting point is leaving the ground before release, you know?

And yes, it is IMO easier to see if the leading foot on a step putt touched the ground before release than if your foot left the ground before release.


My apologies I must have misunderstood how you were applying the concept of a jump putt. I still don’t agree with you though, so we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
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  #143  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:51 AM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
Step putting should be flat out banned for the simple reason that the mechanics make it damn near impossible to police in the event it’s being abused.
The absolute only way to make this illegal and still allow people to follow through on shots not from the tee (which will never go away S&D folks) is by extending the circle to say 100 feet.

I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but it's just not as simple as "you can't jump putt" or "you can't step putt"

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  #144  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:07 AM
DoWork DoWork is offline
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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
The absolute only way to make this illegal and still allow people to follow through on shots not from the tee (which will never go away S&D folks) is by extending the circle to say 100 feet.

I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but it's just not as simple as "you can't jump putt" or "you can't step putt"

New rule time then- no foot shall be above or in front of your marker when releasing the disc. Ever. Done.

#tearsincoming
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  #145  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:12 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
New rule time then- no foot shall be above or in front of your marker when releasing the disc. Ever. Done.

#tearsincoming
Then we would just be debating exactly where someone's foot was at release... same as we are now. I do hate the step putt though.
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  #146  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:59 AM
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Discette Discette is offline
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Originally Posted by curmudgeonDwindle View Post


My experience in disc sports tells me that some will do anything to enrich themselves; this observation includes players at one time regarded as top professionals. It’s merely human nature, but a true sportsman would never put himself above the game. His hierarchy of values prohibit it, as he is servant to the ‘law’. That being said, we are all at differing points on the circle and we are all imperfect, so I leave ‘judgement’ to a higher power.

I suggest you learn more about the concept of gamesmanship - it is not a deliberate rule-breaking strategy, rather it is a deliberate use of the ‘slop’ areas in the rules to gain an ‘unfair’ advantage over one’s opponents. Because rules are never actually broken, no infractions are called, but it reflects a disrespectful sleazy attitude on the part of practitioners, where they place themselves and their concerns first. Most people have played with fellows like this; the fellow who makes a noise at the critical moment - consistently, always seems to be standing in your peripheral vision, moving slightly, during a putt, trash-talkers, etc. In fact, I believe that’s the reason some players use headphones nowadays, to eliminate or reduce some of these distractions. So no, people should NOT use ANY method that’s within the rules that is advantageous. That being said, not every round one plays is a serious competitive round; lots of things are acceptable in casual rounds with friends you are familiar with - serious competition is not the only reason we play.
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
How many illegal jump putts have you called over the years? How many have you seen in real time that you have thought might be illegal but have been unable to definitively say?

When a rule is for all intents and purposes unenforceable in practice the problem is indeed about the rule.

There is plenty of cultural problem as well with respect to numerous other issues but this one is an issue with the rule on top of the culture.
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
because the problem isn't that I don't know how to play within the rules. the problem is that a not insignificant portion of the player base wants to take advantage of the "un-callability" of jump putts that aren't performed in accordance with the rules and act super indignant if you call them out on it
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post

I personally don't feel that players that use these techniques are showing sportsmanship, integrity, consideration for other players, and sometimes are not abiding by the Rules of Play.
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
Step putting should be flat out banned for the simple reason that the mechanics make it damn near impossible to police in the event it’s being abused.

Every time I play with a step putter, I let them know after the first hole when I see them use this "tactic" that I will be watching. There is always this little voice in the back of my head that tells me this person is a "gamer". Once I see you "pushing the rules" in this area of the game, this lets me know you are likely to "push" other rules as well.


Suspect step putters are the players that try to extend the "step" an extra five to ten feet in front of the lie instead of just naturally stepping through on the follow through. A natural step is about 3 feet, an unnatural step is when the front foot is trying to reach out beyond the natural step. This is where the gaming comes in. A seven foot "step" through is not a natural follow through, it is an attempt to gain an advantage.

To be clear, I have played with at least one step putter that was doing it correctly. They didn't do every hole and they always asked if they were out of the circle and announced before that they were going to step putt. Since they were a "slow motion" walk/step putter, it was real easy to tell they were doing it properly. They were not trying to move forward five to ten more feet in front of their lie like the "gamers", they were just naturally walking through AFTER releasing the putt. Easy to see in real time, easy to call in real time.

Be on notice that if you are a step putter, there are plenty of players out there that will question your honesty, integrity and sportsmanship. Please don't be defensive with me about your step putt. Instead, please take video of you doing a step putt 18 times in a row and then be honest with yourself about what you see. If it looks like you are trying to step out five or more feet or if it is too close to call and you still continue to use the step putt...that's on your conscience, not mine.

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  #147  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:10 AM
DoWork DoWork is offline
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Then we would just be debating exactly where someone's foot was at release... same as we are now. I do hate the step putt though.

I hear ya, I just don’t see any benefit in allowing unnecessary grey areas that allow even a debatable unfair advantage, moreso when a “clean” use is almost indistinguishable from an “improper” one... Which in turn puts all the pressure on the cardmates to police. Total crap from top to bottom if you ask me, and I would love to see that grey area disappear personally.
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  #148  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:59 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
New rule time then- no foot shall be above or in front of your marker when releasing the disc. Ever. Done.



#tearsincoming
That has no effect on jump putts.

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  #149  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:13 PM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Originally Posted by Discette View Post
Every time I play with a step putter, I let them know after the first hole when I see them use this "tactic" that I will be watching. There is always this little voice in the back of my head that tells me this person is a "gamer". Once I see you "pushing the rules" in this area of the game, this lets me know you are likely to "push" other rules as well.


Suspect step putters are the players that try to extend the "step" an extra five to ten feet in front of the lie instead of just naturally stepping through on the follow through. A natural step is about 3 feet, an unnatural step is when the front foot is trying to reach out beyond the natural step. This is where the gaming comes in. A seven foot "step" through is not a natural follow through, it is an attempt to gain an advantage.

To be clear, I have played with at least one step putter that was doing it correctly. They didn't do every hole and they always asked if they were out of the circle and announced before that they were going to step putt. Since they were a "slow motion" walk/step putter, it was real easy to tell they were doing it properly. They were not trying to move forward five to ten more feet in front of their lie like the "gamers", they were just naturally walking through AFTER releasing the putt. Easy to see in real time, easy to call in real time.

Be on notice that if you are a step putter, there are plenty of players out there that will question your honesty, integrity and sportsmanship. Please don't be defensive with me about your step putt. Instead, please take video of you doing a step putt 18 times in a row and then be honest with yourself about what you see. If it looks like you are trying to step out five or more feet or if it is too close to call and you still continue to use the step putt...that's on your conscience, not mine.
There's nothing in the rule book about your follow through having to look natural. You're making stuff up b/c you don't like step-putts. Is James Conrad being a "gamer" when he's falling over after a hard throw? Outside the circle you can be as awkward and goofy looking as you want as long as the disc has left your hand before you hit the ground past your lie.
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  #150  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:04 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Originally Posted by DoWork View Post
I hear ya, I just don’t see any benefit in allowing unnecessary grey areas that allow even a debatable unfair advantage, moreso when a “clean” use is almost indistinguishable from an “improper” one... Which in turn puts all the pressure on the cardmates to police. Total crap from top to bottom if you ask me, and I would love to see that grey area disappear personally.
Its not Gray its black and white, just hard to see. Its not an unfair advantage anyone can do it.

Those of us that don't by and large probably feel it is more awkward than not, it has nothing to do with being afraid of committing a fault.

There are a lot of parallels to this type of thing in many sports. In those instances the offending player is usually TRYING to accomplish the goal playing by the rules and their focus is on a goal. They could swear up down and sideways that they were in the clear with their action and even watching a video replay might question if it were the same play that shows them clearly at fault. It really by and large is not a place to question integrity and "gamesmanship"? I really can't see how step putting or jump putting comes any where near my understanding of gamesmanship which has a lot more to do with trying to intimidate or get in the opponents head, more of psychological games rather than an action.

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