#551  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:17 AM
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discerdoo discerdoo is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
you could also choose not to read...
I certainly don't read the manifesto posts. I tend to gawk at car wrecks too, one of my many character flaws.
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  #552  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:58 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Originally Posted by Arisugawa View Post
It is an interesting dilemma to have. The need to grow the sport vs. the integrity of the competition.
I'd just like to add that, in my 6ish years of playing disc golf, I don't see a correlation between PDGA membership and rules knowledge/compliance. If I thought that playing in a PDGA sanctioned tournament meant that everybody would be playing by the rules I would've been a member as of a few years ago. Instead I've had PDGA members tell me incorrect rulings, tell me that I'm wrong with no evidence, I've had the PDGA director for my state tell me an incorrect ruling and wouldn't change his mind even after I showed him how he was wrong as stated in the rulebook.

So I personally don't see any benefit for an event being PDGA sanctioned.
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  #553  
Old 08-30-2019, 09:40 AM
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Arisugawa Arisugawa is offline
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Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
I'd just like to add that, in my 6ish years of playing disc golf, I don't see a correlation between PDGA membership and rules knowledge/compliance. If I thought that playing in a PDGA sanctioned tournament meant that everybody would be playing by the rules I would've been a member as of a few years ago. Instead I've had PDGA members tell me incorrect rulings, tell me that I'm wrong with no evidence, I've had the PDGA director for my state tell me an incorrect ruling and wouldn't change his mind even after I showed him how he was wrong as stated in the rulebook.

So I personally don't see any benefit for an event being PDGA sanctioned.
You're correct. Signing up for the PDGA does not require passing the certified official's exam, and many players who are officials did the minimum amount of work to pass the exam and do not know all of the rules or the nuances of applying them. That extends to some TDs.

I was merely pointing out that in my experience, the permitted and expected ignorance on the part of the participants (and staff, at times), and the assumption that experienced players will make allowances for this, to encourage more participation is an interesting problem that I've only witnessed in disc golf.

It very likely is not unique to our sport, but it is the first I've encountered. For example, I never experienced anything similar, even in the intermediate levels of a USTA sanctioned tennis tournament.

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  #554  
Old 08-30-2019, 11:06 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Originally Posted by Arisugawa View Post
I was merely pointing out that in my experience, the permitted and expected ignorance on the part of the participants (and staff, at times), and the assumption that experienced players will make allowances for this, to encourage more participation is an interesting problem that I've only witnessed in disc golf.

It very likely is not unique to our sport, but it is the first I've encountered. For example, I never experienced anything similar, even in the intermediate levels of a USTA sanctioned tennis tournament.
That is a great point and I would agree with you. As somebody who grew up playing basketball, soccer, and tennis at various levels of competition, disc golf is unique in that regard.
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  #555  
Old 08-30-2019, 01:33 PM
John Rock John Rock is offline
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Ginger, You try hard to be politically correct and your rebuttals/arguments are mostly sound, but your last paragraph just ruined your whole stance. You're comparing players in Open divisions with your fears. Those playing in an Open division are putting their skills up against all comers, they're not choosing to compete where they feel they have some advantage. Personally I'm not in favor of letting trans-people compete in a protected division like you have done, it just reeks of unfairness given the final outcome. Please quit comparing Open players with those choosing a protected division for whatever reason they may be able to justify.

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  #556  
Old 08-30-2019, 03:08 PM
BigDickHyzer BigDickHyzer is offline
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Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the facts. Here is mine:
It's nice to see some actual links and references to actual facts instead of anecdotal evidence. Saying "so and so is actually taller than me, so actually I'm at a disadvantage" doesn't exactly move the needle for me.
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  #557  
Old 08-30-2019, 05:13 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
So, you want to disallow transgender women from competing because they have longer limbs, ie. more kinetic leverage? Make 'monkey factor' divisions, separating Eveliina Salonen from Sarah Hokom, and separating Jeremy Koling from Paul McBeth.
You want to disallow transgender women from competing because they have more weight, ie. more intertia and weight shift to bring to the table when hurling their discs forward? Make weight classes, separating Burl Berlogar from Elaine King, and separating Val Jenkins from Paige Pierce.
You want to disallow transgender women from competing because they have more muscle mass? Make weight mass classes, separating Sarah Hokom from Paige Pierce.
You want to regulate specific bodily measurements but not others, you are on a slope so slippery you will have effectively killed physical excellence.
This strikes me as a straw man. As best I've seen, nobody has argued that all trans-women will have those advantages, over all other women.

On average, men have certain physical advantages over women. Not all, of course; there are women who are taller and have longer limbs than, say, me. But on average, men have physical advantages, which is why we have a protected division.

The variations in individuals don't matter.

Take 1000 men and 1000 women, the averages favor the men. Transition those 1000 men, and some of those advantages still apply.

Your argument should be that the advantages that may still apply are vastly outweighed by the advantages that will no longer apply (testosterone, muscle mass), to the degree that the female-protected divisions are appropriate.

I don't know if that's true or not, but that should be the argument. I gather it's a winning argument with the IOC and many other sports.

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  #558  
Old 08-30-2019, 06:57 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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Originally Posted by John Rock View Post
Ginger, You try hard to be politically correct and your rebuttals/arguments are mostly sound, but your last paragraph just ruined your whole stance. You're comparing players in Open divisions with your fears. Those playing in an Open division are putting their skills up against all comers, they're not choosing to compete where they feel they have some advantage. Personally I'm not in favor of letting trans-people compete in a protected division like you have done, it just reeks of unfairness given the final outcome. Please quit comparing Open players with those choosing a protected division for whatever reason they may be able to justify.
I am amused and amazed that you 'pull' fears as your operative word for my post.
Fear has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote.
And, you don't know what, if any, my fears are.

The comparisons I am making are no more an dno less than an extrapolation of trying to curb physical differences between players.
By trying to regulate - as a result of the countless "well, transgender women have XXX and YYY traits, you are jus tgoing to have to extrapolate that to the disc golf population as a whole.
Including those in MPO and FPO that are 'not contested' by you, like I obviously am.

If you want to disallow a transgender woman playing in a gender-protected division for having a certain physical trait, you are going to have to step on that slippery slope, and start making distinctions like the ones I made in my examples.

And the even more outrageous "well, a transgender woman could only play gender-protected if they wer eno taller than 5'6", not heavier than 160lb, have wing span no more than 5'7", wear shoes no larger than US10, etc...." Don't even get me started, please....
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  #559  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:12 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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Originally Posted by BigDickHyzer View Post
It's nice to see some actual links and references to actual facts instead of anecdotal evidence. Saying "so and so is actually taller than me, so actually I'm at a disadvantage" doesn't exactly move the needle for me.
I'm not trying to move the needle in any direction.

I am simply debunking allegations and accusations that transgender women are taller, have longer arms, have broader shoulders, etc. by giving you first-hand knowledge of the opposite occurring.
I am not presenting it as "I am at a disadvantage".
I am not presenting it as "transgender women are NOT taller, do NOT have longer arms, do NOT have broader shoulders, etc."
I am simply showing you data that proves that a broad brush is used to paint transgender women as having advantageous physical measurements.

The only thing you'll win that game on, is claiming I have larger feet than my competitors.
It is what I am still highly dysphoric about, and will always remain so.

Rather than a disadvantage, I felt I was at an advantage, but not one that you would probably pick for me.

My putting game. I knew I went into the tournament with a 3 month average of C1 putting at 82%. That is mostly because I tend to remain calm AND I have a notoriously conservative putting style. I think that in my entire 9 year career, I 3-putted about 6 or 7 times.
That 82% is 'pretty solid', if I may say so myself. And is almost exclusively an aim & confidence thing. There's very little, if any at all, physical advantage one player would hold over another inside C1.

That percentage gave me a mental break and perceived advantage that allowed me to remain confident, even if my drives and approaches were average/okay.
For AmWorlds, I actually tallied an 86% C1 putting percentage; ie. even higher than what I already knew I could do.
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  #560  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:26 PM
John Rock John Rock is offline
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Slippery slope, I guess. Isn't that everyday life? Many slopes we have to traverse, sometimes we need crampons to reach our objectives. As a long time player who has organized many, many events, I have heard numerous complaints about who is playing what division, and have heard just as many lame-a** excuses why so-and-so doesn't want to play a division more in line with their skill level.
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