#231  
Old 04-15-2019, 11:34 AM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Reniger View Post
How long do the players, the fans, and the sport have to suffer at the hubris of Dodge? This is just pathetic and not improving... Swallow your pride, accept that this isn't working, and allow those with experience to do their damn job.
I understand your position, and I don't love the coverage, but this event would have been off the radar if dodge didn't cover it.

Some might say that it is hubris on our part to think we know better, and yes, I comment critically too, when we aren't there.
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  #232  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:31 PM
Mspot Mspot is offline
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Yeah I definitely chose the Masters over anything else. Without disc golf I probably wouldn't have nearly as strong an appreciation of golf and may not have ever even thought of watching Tiger. But just imagine Paul losing out on the next decade of Worlds/USDGC level championships - and then taking a Worlds?

Or you could just imagine Ken Climo entering worlds this year and winning.
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  #233  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:43 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by Reniger View Post
How long do the players, the fans, and the sport have to suffer at the hubris of Dodge? This is just pathetic and not improving... Swallow your pride, accept that this isn't working, and allow those with experience to do their damn job.
Did you miss the announcement that the "experienced" folks are coming back at the next DGPT? Jomez/CCDG/etc are going to be at San Francisco.

And frankly, I don't see the players suffering all that much. Everything for the tour outside of the media part seems to be working out quite well so far this year. All three DGPTs have been well attended and the winners have been well compensated. Seems to me the only people who are "suffering" are those spoiled by and yearning for the quality of post-production that we've gotten accustomed to. And starting with the next event, we're going to get that back.

Some hubris displayed by Steve.

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  #234  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:53 PM
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ChrisWoj ChrisWoj is offline
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Or you could just imagine Ken Climo entering worlds this year and winning.
It'd be shocking, but it'd also be a different sort of narrative. I think it would have more in common with the narrative surrounding Tom Watson in 2009 than Woods in 2019. Climo didn't just stop winning in his late-prime like Woods did. Climo was winning up until almost the age of 40, won USDGC and the Player of the Year at the age of 38. He slowed down winning his Major events until they petered out. I feel like the Tiger narrative requires someone at the top of the sport just stopping winning all at once. Like if Schusterick had had more years of Major victories before his injury woes started fraying his performance.
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  #235  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:02 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Did you miss the announcement that the "experienced" folks are coming back at the next DGPT? Jomez/CCDG/etc are going to be at San Francisco.

And frankly, I don't see the players suffering all that much. Everything for the tour outside of the media part seems to be working out quite well so far this year. All three DGPTs have been well attended and the winners have been well compensated. Seems to me the only people who are "suffering" are those spoiled by and yearning for the quality of post-production that we've gotten accustomed to. And starting with the next event, we're going to get that back.

Some hubris displayed by Steve.
At last, our long international suffering is over (I'm assuming that the rest of the world cares too). We can all sleep better tonight knowing that the world... of disc golf... is in safe hands. Yes, I can set aside teddy and sleep soundly, without fret or worry, secure in the knowledge that JV, Ian, Jonathan and Terry are riding in on white horses to save the day.

Now what am I gonna whine about? Some help please.

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  #236  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
It'd be shocking, but it'd also be a different sort of narrative. I think it would have more in common with the narrative surrounding Tom Watson in 2009 than Woods in 2019. Climo didn't just stop winning in his late-prime like Woods did. Climo was winning up until almost the age of 40, won USDGC and the Player of the Year at the age of 38. He slowed down winning his Major events until they petered out. I feel like the Tiger narrative requires someone at the top of the sport just stopping winning all at once. Like if Schusterick had had more years of Major victories before his injury woes started fraying his performance.
Schusterick would be a more interesting narrative for me. Climo didn't just fall off a cliff, he won and then left on his own terms after a storied career.

BTW - to win Worlds, at this point, Climo would have to make a deal with the devil. Too old, too much talent, a different world.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Schusterick would be a more interesting narrative for me. Climo didn't just fall off a cliff, he won and then left on his own terms after a storied career.

BTW - to win Worlds, at this point, Climo would have to make a deal with the devil. Too old, too much talent, a different world.
Isn't that last bit what they said about Tiger? I think the possibility for a Watson-style narrative is there for Climo - something out of nowhere, a magical week on just the right course, at just the right time. But I, in general, agree with you. The last time Climo showed he could put together multiple rounds on the level you need to to be a Pro World Champion was the 2016 Memorial. And that's just a few of them, much less 4-5. The PDGA splitting off Pro Masters worlds helps this along considerably.

I think the Cam Todd fits the Woods narrative, but his big comeback wasn't as important as a Golf Masters/DG Worlds and his prime wasn't so phenomenal that we could call him an all-timer in terms of performance (could someone get a wiki page set up for him so we could look up some info when his PDGA membership isn't current?). He's like a Tiger-Narrative-Lite-for-DG.

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  #238  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:21 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Schusterick would be a more interesting narrative for me. Climo didn't just fall off a cliff, he won and then left on his own terms after a storied career.

BTW - to win Worlds, at this point, Climo would have to make a deal with the devil. Too old, too much talent, a different world.
Under the old long format I would agree but with the shortened format lots of people can win (see last year as example). Ken's deal with the devil would pertain to health more than anything else.

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  #239  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:45 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
Isn't that last bit what they said about Tiger? I think the possibility for a Watson-style narrative is there for Climo - something out of nowhere, a magical week on just the right course, at just the right time. But I, in general, agree with you. The last time Climo showed he could put together multiple rounds on the level you need to to be a Pro World Champion was the 2016 Memorial. And that's just a few of them, much less 4-5. The PDGA splitting off Pro Masters worlds helps this along considerably.

I think the Cam Todd fits the Woods narrative, but his big comeback wasn't as important as a Golf Masters/DG Worlds and his prime wasn't so phenomenal that we could call him an all-timer in terms of performance (could someone get a wiki page set up for him so we could look up some info when his PDGA membership isn't current?). He's like a Tiger-Narrative-Lite-for-DG.
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Under the old long format I would agree but with the shortened format lots of people can win (see last year as example). Ken's deal with the devil would pertain to health more than anything else.
What, you think Tiger didn't make a deal with the devil?

A few things. First, Tiger is a multimillionaire who can afford the best in training, facilities, and full-time work towards his goal, I don't think Climo can do that. Second, I'd be really interested to see Tiger's blood workup. And I'd be completely unsurprised if his steroid composition was off.

The axiom has always been that once you hit 40, your athletic ability is not going to cut it, then we introduced steroids and suddenly, everyone is Superman. And yes, my feeling is that guys like Brady and others are doing juice. This should shock exactly no one.

I do admit, the shortened format would help, but without the means that Tiger has, I just don't see it. Climo has had shoulder problems and the edge just isn't there in what he's said and done. Tiger always showed a desire to play again, probably because that is all he has. Climo, who may have been a snot on tour, has a family and a business, that is, he is a more rounded human being, IMO.

Oh yeah, I forgot, the talent pool in golf didn't seem to change much. It most assuredly has in disc golf. So the depth Tiger faced then and now is the same. Not the same for Climo, IMO.

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  #240  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:59 PM
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ChrisWoj ChrisWoj is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
What, you think Tiger didn't make a deal with the devil?

A few things. First, Tiger is a multimillionaire who can afford the best in training, facilities, and full-time work towards his goal, I don't think Climo can do that. Second, I'd be really interested to see Tiger's blood workup. And I'd be completely unsurprised if his steroid composition was off.

The axiom has always been that once you hit 40, your athletic ability is not going to cut it, then we introduced steroids and suddenly, everyone is Superman. And yes, my feeling is that guys like Brady and others are doing juice. This should shock exactly no one.

I do admit, the shortened format would help, but without the means that Tiger has, I just don't see it. Climo has had shoulder problems and the edge just isn't there in what he's said and done. Tiger always showed a desire to play again, probably because that is all he has. Climo, who may have been a snot on tour, has a family and a business, that is, he is a more rounded human being, IMO.

Oh yeah, I forgot, the talent pool in golf didn't seem to change much. It most assuredly has in disc golf. So the depth Tiger faced then and now is the same. Not the same for Climo, IMO.
I disagree with only one point - I think your statement that "the talent pool in golf didn't seem to change much" is off. I think it has changed considerably, and I think that it is deeper than ever. I think we're seeing that across the board in sports both major and minor - discrete skills development for younger athletes is more efficient. We spent decades on techniques that were revered almost exclusively because they'd been hypothesized about and studied, whereas now many more techniques are "evidence based." And not only that - the techniques are available for dissemination to many more athletes than ever before. In golf you pair that with the influence of Tiger himself - where you used to have golfers so at home in their lack of fitness that improving themselves threw off their game (John Daly would complain that smaller love handles made putting more difficult because he couldn't rest his arms on his girth, tour regulars like Miguel Angel Jimenez would say that "Water is for fish."... nowadays the guys coming out on tour are not only fit, but that's all they know - they have all of the skills development, plus fitness that allows them to leverage it more powerfully than prior generations.

I wonder how far John Daly could have hit it had he developed with an eye toward fitness as well as his love/talent for golf...
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