#71  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:55 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Finny View Post
What if theyíre a convicted felon with a publicly available record...and innocent? What if they were convicted of murdering their sisterís rapist? What if the convicted felon was ritually abused as a child? What if their dad pimped them out and and got them addicted to drugs? What if theyíre just mentally ill and poor and canít afford services and there arenít any free clinics so they always end up in jail and arrested?

Whatís on paper is somewhere between all of the story and none of it.

Iíve had murder clients who Iíd hire to babysit my kids. Iíve had rapist clients who Iíd introduce to my mother. Iíve had thieving clients who the prosecutors had a soft spot for. I had a really nice prisoner tell me that the 14 words from Mein Kampf were ďa band thing.Ē I watched a fellow defense lawyer get a deserved award for his amazing service to defendants after getting in trouble for spanking a teenage girl he was representing.

Lifeís a rich tapestry and people change. For better and worse.

Convicted and Innocent are 100% antithetical. If they have a conviction later overturned, that's something else... but they can't be both convicted of and innocent of the same crime (at once).
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  #72  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:01 PM
Finny Finny is offline
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Convicted and Innocent are 100% antithetical. If they have a conviction later overturned, that's something else... but they can't be both convicted of and innocent of the same crime (at once).
Well thatís factually untrue. Innocent means you didnít commit the crime. Convicted means a jury said you did. I canít believe I even have to pretend to explain this. Good grief.

I mean, youíve heard of DNA, right? And racism?

https://www.innocenceproject.org/all-cases/

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  #73  
Old 02-18-2020, 05:48 AM
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turbosteve turbosteve is offline
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That was a different time, but yes, both times it was deleted quickly. I know other parents who are group members that throw with their kids that didn't see it and didn't know about the individuals. I told them about one when we crossed paths with the guy on the course.

Again, I don't know all the facts, so I won't entirely judge but I don't need to know . . . not taking chances with my kid or anyone elses.
I find it disturbing that the local club is allowing him to be a member when they know about his record. Kids are starting to play disc golf more often and a child predator could easily use disc golf as a setting to groom a child. I thought there were laws that prevented sex offenders from using facilities that were frequented by children
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  #74  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:45 AM
thecandydan thecandydan is offline
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Originally Posted by turbosteve View Post
I find it disturbing that the local club is allowing him to be a member when they know about his record. Kids are starting to play disc golf more often and a child predator could easily use disc golf as a setting to groom a child. I thought there were laws that prevented sex offenders from using facilities that were frequented by children
This wasn't the local club, he was on the local FB group. He was removed from that when he was outed as a RSO.

He attends a local league. Store that runs it allows it saying it's a public course. Some people choose to no longer play that league. Not an issue for us, we never played that league.

I really don't think the guy poses a danger, especially to boys. I also really have no interest in finding out.
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  #75  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:00 AM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is online now
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Convicted and Innocent are 100% antithetical. If they have a conviction later overturned, that's something else... but they can't be both convicted of and innocent of the same crime (at once).
I don't know the statistics, but there are cases where people are wrongly convicted of a variety of things. It's my belief the system gets it right most of the time, but not always.

But there's also a flipside: sometimes people are guilty, but plea their way down to a lesser charge.

Anyway, I'm not trying to overhaul our criminal justice system. I'm simply asking how you'd feel about being on a card with someone who you knew (either through public records or very reliable sources) had committed such an act.

Would you be able to compete, or would that ruin it for you?

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  #76  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:33 AM
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ru4por ru4por is offline
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Originally Posted by turbosteve View Post
I find it disturbing that the local club is allowing him to be a member when they know about his record. Kids are starting to play disc golf more often and a child predator could easily use disc golf as a setting to groom a child. I thought there were laws that prevented sex offenders from using facilities that were frequented by children
I understand the concept of it takes a village...but, with no offense meant toward parents, it is your job to ensure the safety of your child. Not the local disc golf club.
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  #77  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:49 AM
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Golden Tuna Golden Tuna is offline
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Originally Posted by Finny View Post
What if theyíre a convicted felon with a publicly available record...and innocent? What if they were convicted of murdering their sisterís rapist? What if the convicted felon was ritually abused as a child? What if their dad pimped them out and and got them addicted to drugs? What if theyíre just mentally ill and poor and canít afford services and there arenít any free clinics so they always end up in jail and arrested?

Whatís on paper is somewhere between all of the story and none of it.

Iíve had murder clients who Iíd hire to babysit my kids. Iíve had rapist clients who Iíd introduce to my mother. Iíve had thieving clients who the prosecutors had a soft spot for. I had a really nice prisoner tell me that the 14 words from Mein Kampf were ďa band thing.Ē I watched a fellow defense lawyer get a deserved award for his amazing service to defendants after getting in trouble for spanking a teenage girl he was representing.

Lifeís a rich tapestry and people change. For better and worse.
This is quite possibly the most ludicrous thing I've ever read!

You're defending phantom sex offenders/murderers/et all with the "product of their environment" excuse? GTF outta here!

I do not disagree that the root causes you stated would be awful to live through and (likely) produce "bad" humans. But, frankly, I don't care why or how someone turned out to be bad. I only care that they have the capacity to be bad and would never consider putting myself or my children in a position to have to deal with it.

...what if they were wrongly accused! I have always found this "defense" laughable. Though the judicial system is not perfect, I'd like to believe that there is a very low percentage of wrongly accused felons.

Now, I don't consider myself an expert on law, but letting a "murder client babysit your kids" is (to me) grounds to have your children removed from your care. It is a parent's obligation to protect their children from evil until they are old enough to protect themselves.

Look, I know this sounds very closed minded, but my underlying point is basically this, it only takes a moment for something awful to happen (physical abuse, death, sex stuff) so I would never chance it - EVER! I could never live with myself if my choice lead to their abuse, so I take that responsibility very seriously!

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Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
I don't know the statistics, but there are cases where people are wrongly convicted of a variety of things. It's my belief the system gets it right most of the time, but not always.

But there's also a flipside: sometimes people are guilty, but plea their way down to a lesser charge.

Anyway, I'm not trying to overhaul our criminal justice system. I'm simply asking how you'd feel about being on a card with someone who you knew (either through public records or very reliable sources) had committed such an act.

Would you be able to compete, or would that ruin it for you?
I would be able to compete, but it would also "ruin it" for me. Again, I am not a huge fan of people to begin with, so adding ****ty people to the mix further detracts from my enjoyment of that particular round. That said, as a non-people-person, I am used to being surrounded by people I don't care for.
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  #78  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:42 AM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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I run a league and we do not do not do background checks. If i found out that there was someone playing who had a heinous criminal record I would do nothing. The fact that they are no longer in jail, etc. means they have paid their price to society and I am not the one to say you need to pay more of a price. We already have plenty of non-criminals that no one prefers to play with. I don't ban them, I won't ban the ex-cons.

If they got out of line during league, then i may ask them not to come back. Just the same if players badgered this player over their past, those players would not be welcome back either.
Everyone deserves another chance and who knows what the non convicts have done which they didn't get caught for. Labels suck and those who take actions based on them suck as well.
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  #79  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:45 AM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Originally Posted by Finny View Post
Well thatís factually untrue. Innocent means you didnít commit the crime. Convicted means a jury said you did. I canít believe I even have to pretend to explain this. Good grief.

I mean, youíve heard of DNA, right? And racism?

https://www.innocenceproject.org/all-cases/
But at what point does a person have to stop paying a price for past misdeeds?
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  #80  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:48 AM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
I agree that some behaviors are more disgusting than others. My wife was raped by neighborhood kids, stepdads, family friends and boyfriends from the time she was a little girl. One of my cousins was molested by her father. I cannot forgive the actions of those people, in part because they haven't taken redemptive steps and in part because I haven't reached that level of grace. I would never choose to associate with them in a recreational setting, in fact my feelings toward them on bad days border on the murderous.

Disc golf tournaments are, for me, nothing more than a chance to observe a particular batch of humans, not unlike volunteering in prisons, which I also do. I want to listen and learn and, if possible, do something positive for them. Making friends or my enjoyment isn't a priority at tournaments, that's what playing casually is for. I don't find it healthy to hide from the ugliest facts and ugliest people in this world. No matter what someone has done, I will not hide from them, no matter how loathsome they are.
"Disc golf tournaments are, for me, nothing more than a chance to observe a particular batch of humans" That sure is a different slant on things. So you come to tourneys so you can observe me? Give me a Pedo any day over this.
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