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Old 07-26-2018, 07:09 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Default Water rocking disc In then Out of bounds continuously

This came up on Reddit posted by Treereme:

Quote:
My drive slipped off the edge of the fairway and down a river bank. It came to rest upside down, supported by a pointed rock underneath the middle. The rock supporting the disc was fully surrounded by water. The rest of the disc was supported by the water, which was in motion and kept the disc gently rocking in place. Because of this rocking motion, the disc was coming into contact with the shore of the river every few seconds. When in contact with the shore, the disc would be in bounds. When it rocked away from the shore, it was clearly ob.
So, the disc is 'at rest' and is being moved laterally by the water backwards and forwards, in and out of bounds every few seconds. Interested what people think the call should be.

My thoughts in comments.
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Old 07-26-2018, 07:15 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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My first thought....

Rule 806.2.B Out of bounds says:

Quote:
A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area.
The usual interpretation of "clearly" is in spatial terms based on the assumption of a static disc. IE can you see out of bounds all the way around the disc. In this case it is varying with time, so a case could be argued that it is not 'clearly' out of bounds because of the temporal variation.

Because the disc can't be said to have met one of the criteria for being out of bounds it should be considered in-bounds.

This also feels 'nice' as it is an ambiguous edge case, and my interpretation of the rules is that all discs are in bounds unless they meet the criteria for being OB. Kind of an innocent until proven guilty thing.

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Old 07-26-2018, 07:26 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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I'd call it OB. Here's why...
805.01 Establishing a Position
B. A thrown disc is considered to be at rest when it first stops moving. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest when it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.
If the disc is floating in the water, it's moving only by the power of the water. Even if at times it floats back and touches land, it is not touching the land as a result of its own momentum. It came to rest floating on the water, it's surrounded by water and therefore OB.

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Old 07-26-2018, 07:43 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
I'd call it OB. Here's why...
805.01 Establishing a Position
B. A thrown disc is considered to be at rest when it first stops moving. A disc in water or foliage is considered to be at rest when it is moving only as a result of movement of the water, the foliage, or the wind.
If the disc is floating in the water, it's moving only by the power of the water. Even if at times it floats back and touches land, it is not touching the land as a result of its own momentum. It came to rest floating on the water, it's surrounded by water and therefore OB.
This seems most likely.

I guess it's possible that the disc came to rest with a little bit of it on land, and the rest in the water; and that then the motion of the water lifted it off. But it seems much more likely that the opposite happened.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:14 AM
d11rok d11rok is offline
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This is of course assuming that the water itself is out of bounds. This situation has been seen previously with some variation, and they all seem to have a similar solution: there should be out of bounds marked prior to the water's edge

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Old 07-26-2018, 09:16 AM
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Why can't we just take our OB and move on.

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Old 07-26-2018, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d11rok View Post
This is of course assuming that the water itself is out of bounds. This situation has been seen previously with some variation, and they all seem to have a similar solution: there should be out of bounds marked prior to the water's edge
Preferably, though it's not always practical to do so.

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Old 07-26-2018, 11:41 AM
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chevis chevis is offline
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There is a phase in the rulebook under Q/A of completing a hole: "... However, if your group cannot reach a majority decision, the benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower ..."
I would think benefit of doubt could be applied here too; the disc came to rest in-bounds and waves made it ob.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:56 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevis View Post
There is a phase in the rulebook under Q/A of completing a hole: "... However, if your group cannot reach a majority decision, the benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower ..."
I would think benefit of doubt could be applied here too; the disc came to rest in-bounds and waves made it ob.
You can't make decisions based on what might have happened, you have to make them based on the evidence at hand.

The fundamental principle of disc golf is that players play the course as they found it and play the disc where it lies (800 Description of the Game). In the absence of evidence that the disc came to rest in-bounds, such as a spottter or tournament official having observed the disc at rest in-bounds and marking it as such, or an observeable rise in the water level sufficient to cover an area clearly demarcated as in-bounds, the decision must be made on the disc's current observed position, not on hypothetical might-have-beens.

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Old 07-26-2018, 01:03 PM
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chevis chevis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philstine View Post
You can't make decisions based on what might have happened, you have to make them based on the evidence at hand.

The fundamental principle of disc golf is that players play the course as they found it and play the disc where it lies (800 Description of the Game). In the absence of evidence that the disc came to rest in-bounds, such as a spottter or tournament official having observed the disc at rest in-bounds and marking it as such, or an observeable rise in the water level sufficient to cover an area clearly demarcated as in-bounds, the decision must be made on the disc's current observed position, not on hypothetical might-have-beens.
In this case though, it is 50/50, like the disc wedged in the cage... half in, half out, benefit of doubt.
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