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Old 03-30-2020, 01:14 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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809.02 Provisional Throw
A. A provisional throw is an extra throw that is not added to a player's score if it is not ultimately used in the completion of the hole. The player must inform the group that a throw is provisional prior to making it.

B. Provisional throws are used:

1. To save time. A player may declare a provisional throw any time:

a. The status of a disc cannot be readily determined because it may be lost, out-of-bounds, or have missed a mandatory; and,

b. The group agrees that a provisional throw may save time.

The thrower then continues play from whichever of the two throws is deemed by the group or an Official to have resulted in the correct lie.

2. To appeal a ruling when there are different resulting lies. A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole as part of an appeal when a player in the group disagrees with a group decision and an Official is not readily available, or if a player in the group wishes to appeal the decision of an Official. The scores from both sets of throws are recorded. Once the appeal has been resolved, only the score from the correct set of throws is counted.
In reference to the two bolded bits.

If you throw a time saving provisional, are you allowed to make subsequent throws from the provisional throw until you have reached the original throw and can find out whether it was OB or not?

IE First tee-shot is 400' but potentially OB. Provisional re-tee is 200' IB. Can the player walk to the 200' shot and continue throwing the provisional 'sequence', until they reach the 400' drive?

The bolded bits show this is clearly OK (and necessary) for a rule dispute provisional. But for a time-saving one, the wording implies not.

It's a subtly of possibly little significance, but we're not busy doing anything else are we?
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Old 03-31-2020, 11:58 AM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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I'm not going to quote the original post....but for the answer let's go to PDGA.com>Rules>Rules Questions and Answers where we find this:

QA-PRO-1: What is the provisional throw rule and when should it be used?
A provisional throw is used when a player disagrees with the group’s ruling and no Official is available, or when it might save time in case of a possible lost or OB disc, or missed mandatory. Provisional throws allow play to continue by deferring the ruling until the status of the disc in question can be determined, or an Official is available to settle the matter. In the case where a ruling is disputed or uncertain, a player may have to play out from both the original and the provisional throws, essentially completing two legs. Once a ruling has been made, only the throws for the correct leg are counted.

I bolded the part that applies to your question. If you don't know the status of your throw, you can throw a provisional (remember to announce to your group that you are playing a provisional), and you keep throwing the provisional until you reach the initial throw. At that point you and the group make a decision as to the status of the throw in question. Then you play the appropriate disc from that point. If a decision can't be made, you continue to throw two discs until both are holed out; you record both scores and bring it up to the tournament director/rules official to determine which score is valid.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:04 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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The situation you are describing would be insanely rare.

While someone throwing a 400 foot shot blindly and going OB is not rare, forcing that person to re-throw or that person choosing to do so would almost never happen.

Saying that, I think your logic is correct.
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:05 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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(Clarification to my previous reply)...To answer your specific question....the status of your throw isn't known yet. So you throw a provisional until you reach your other disc. At that time, you determine the status of that throw and which throw you should continue from (or can't decide and continue to throw both until both are in the basket, at which case, you get a ruling after the round).
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Old 03-31-2020, 12:14 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
The situation you are describing would be insanely rare.

While someone throwing a 400 foot shot blindly and going OB is not rare, forcing that person to re-throw or that person choosing to do so would almost never happen.

Saying that, I think your logic is correct.
There are times when you don't know the status of your disc and will want to play a provisional. Using the example of the original post....the disc could be out of bounds in a very poor location and the player doesn't have a good throw from the relief spot. If they play a provisional they may end up with a better lie and choose to abandon their first throw (with a one stroke penalty).

So....throw off the tee goes 400 feet and may be out of bounds or unplayable.
Announce a provisional is being played.
Provisional goes 315 feet. Status of first disc is still not known.
Throw second provisional shot.
Find first disc in a bush with no good throw from that location.
Announce the first throw is abandoned.
Continue with provisional throws now being the 'in play' throws (one stroke penalty for abandoning a throw).

Or throw your first disc 400 feet and you aren't sure of the status.
Throw a provisional.
Get to where the first disc should be and you can't find it.
Instead of playing a lost disc and going back to where you last threw from (400 feet back) and delaying play.....continue to play the provisional as the 'in play' disc. One penalty shot added due to the lost disc.
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Old 03-31-2020, 01:58 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
There are times when you don't know the status of your disc and will want to play a provisional. Using the example of the original post....the disc could be out of bounds in a very poor location and the player doesn't have a good throw from the relief spot. If they play a provisional they may end up with a better lie and choose to abandon their first throw (with a one stroke penalty).

So....throw off the tee goes 400 feet and may be out of bounds or unplayable.
Announce a provisional is being played.
Provisional goes 315 feet. Status of first disc is still not known.
Throw second provisional shot.
Find first disc in a bush with no good throw from that location.
Announce the first throw is abandoned.
Continue with provisional throws now being the 'in play' throws (one stroke penalty for abandoning a throw).

Or throw your first disc 400 feet and you aren't sure of the status.
Throw a provisional.
Get to where the first disc should be and you can't find it.
Instead of playing a lost disc and going back to where you last threw from (400 feet back) and delaying play.....continue to play the provisional as the 'in play' disc. One penalty shot added due to the lost disc.

Uh, Bill that's where I think this situation become troublesome. I player declares "Provisional in case I am OB", plays it out, then his disc is later declared lost -- uh, no, imho. That provisional was for OB, not for any situation he might incur. The rules don't explicitly state but strongly imply that you say WHAT the provisional is for. You'll find many situations through these threads where not that exact situation,but allowing a player to back-track his provisional is a problem.

The reasoning is that you can't have already seen the outcome of the throw before deciding to use it. I can give examples if you want.

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Old 03-31-2020, 02:18 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Uh, Bill that's where I think this situation become troublesome. I player declares "Provisional in case I am OB", plays it out, then his disc is later declared lost -- uh, no, imho. That provisional was for OB, not for any situation he might incur. The rules don't explicitly state but strongly imply that you say WHAT the provisional is for. You'll find many situations through these threads where not that exact situation,but allowing a player to back-track his provisional is a problem.

The reasoning is that you can't have already seen the outcome of the throw before deciding to use it. I can give examples if you want.
You play a provisional for two reasons.

1. you don't know the status of your throw (out of bounds, lost, etc). So you play a provisional until that is decided. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provisional until the status of your throw is determined.

2. You don't know the ruling for a throw (is it out of bounds, is two meter rule in effect, etc) and the other players on your card can't decide. So you play a provisional AND the original, scoring two scores for that hole and then get a tournament director/rules official to make the decision on which is correct. -In this case, you declare you are throwing a provision along with the original and will have the TD/rules official determine which score is correct.

You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.

Last edited by BillFleming; 03-31-2020 at 02:22 PM. Reason: added information
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:47 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
You never have to be specific on the reason for a provisional....so you never have to say..."I'm throwing a provisional because my other throw might be lost". All you need to say is "I'm throwing a provisional."

No where in 809.02 Provisional Throw does it say you have to declare WHY the provisional is being thrown. Just that you must declare a provisional is being thrown.
While that's true, 809.02a indicates the three penalty scenarios - OB, Lost and missed mando - where the provisional throw can be used. If the disc actually did not land in a penalty situation, you may not use the provisional in the event you really don't like where the disc landed inbounds. However, you can Abandon that inbounds lie and go back to throw again plus a penalty.
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:02 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
While that's true, 809.02a indicates the three penalty scenarios - OB, Lost and missed mando - where the provisional throw can be used. If the disc actually did not land in a penalty situation, you may not use the provisional in the event you really don't like where the disc landed inbounds. However, you can Abandon that inbounds lie and go back to throw again plus a penalty.
And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
And that falls under the 'save time" part of the provisional rule. If you played a provisional, you wouldn't have to 'waste' time going back to your last throw after abandoning your other throw. You play the provisional, come up to your previous disc, don't like the lie, declare it abandoned, declare your provisional as the in play disc, add one stroke for the abandoned lie, and continue with the disc that was the provisional.

So, yes you can use the provisional after abandoning a throw....you have saved time by not having to go back to the spot of the last throw and your group doesn't have to decide where you made your last throw from if it wasn't the tee box.
One of the underlying rules concepts is you don't get to choose which result you would like of two different inbounds throws resulting from using a provisional. I'm sure one of the RC posters will or should back this up. Throwing a provisional in case you don't like your inbounds throw is not an option. However, you can agree to abandon your first throw no matter where it ends up landing and throw your third shot from the tee and have to play it.

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