#91  
Old 06-10-2017, 08:18 PM
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scarpfish scarpfish is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr.Smooth View Post
Yeah the amount of divisions in the sport is enough to make one vomit.. Simplify, one division tournaments get the ams and masters to compete on a higher level. Make the spread a little greater and gives everyone a legitimate chance.
Says the message board idealists, not the people actually handing over money for entry fees, or TD's needing a decent amount of those players to show up so they're not on the hook for hundreds of dollars in tourney expenses.

Never have understood why some on here can't comprehend that we have the convoluted system that we do because conventional wisdom and repeated practice has shown it's the one most players want.
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  #92  
Old 06-10-2017, 10:22 PM
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Funny that few of those message board idealists step up to demonstrate their "better" ideas.

(With the greatest admiration for those few who do, and in doing so give players more options).
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  #93  
Old 06-11-2017, 10:24 AM
93EXCivic 93EXCivic is offline
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Disc golf is weird to me sometimes. In every other sport and competition I have been involved in as an adult (autocrossing, soccer and ultimate), you were competing for pride and a little trophy (maybe a small plastic cone, t-shirt, etc). Yet in disc golf, everyone needs these big awards of plastic and these players packs full of stuff that is never going to be used. Does no one else think this is a bit of a sad reflection of the sport that the thrill of competition isn't enough?

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  #94  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:31 PM
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I don't know about sad, but it is an oddity.

Though that's the Am level. On the lower-tier pro level, which is the subject at hand, what we've really done is codified gambling. Lots of people in lots of sports like to wager, and we've just made it an automatic part of our game. With, generally in B-tiers and higher, a sweetener from the TD.
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  #95  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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AndyJB AndyJB is offline
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Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
Disc golf is weird to me sometimes. In every other sport and competition I have been involved in as an adult (autocrossing, soccer and ultimate), you were competing for pride and a little trophy (maybe a small plastic cone, t-shirt, etc). Yet in disc golf, everyone needs these big awards of plastic and these players packs full of stuff that is never going to be used. Does no one else think this is a bit of a sad reflection of the sport that the thrill of competition isn't enough?
Ive been saying this for awhile now. It really hit home recently when a player who moved from out of state played MA2 in a tournament, took 6th (out of 13) and threw a massive hissy fit in person and online about how back where he's from, he would have won all this plastic,blah blah blah

Here in CO, more people have been embracing "true amateur" events, but they lost the plot along the way. The goal of true amateur events is for them to be cheap, with minimal rewards in order to get more people to play competitively while also enticing them to improve their skills and move into the pro ranks where they can win some actual money.

However, for whatever reason, true am events here charge an arm and a leg and give out these huge players packs. I have two while trunks in my garage of tournament plastic that I'll never throw. Thats the danger of these big players packs; you are trying to "wow!" the players, but youre going to disappoint most of them with discs they dont throw.

Either way (huge amateur payouts or huge amateur players packs) you're not really enticing people to focus their game and move up. The less pro players means less entry fees, means less pro payouts. Sponsor dollars are hard to come by, even in a very disc golf friendly state like Colorado. Until there is massive pro players (increasing the purse through entry fees) and big-time sponsor dollars we wont see a rise in pro payouts. At least not a significant one.

I mean, we are at a weird point where even C-Tiers sell out in minutes, but we are still having to sell teesign sponsorships for 50 bucks to local players or businesses just to pull the tournament off at a small loss or breaking even.

Its going to take time...Ive been in disc golf for 26 years now. I've got plenty of patience.
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  #96  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:16 PM
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davetherocketguy davetherocketguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
Decrease the minimum am payout table, wean ams off of extravagant player packs and fun-bucks, pay pros.

Of course, I am biased.
Whats the motivation for middle of the road ams like me to come to tournaments then?

You want what? Me to pay $60/year for a PDGA membership, $35 per tournament so I can get what? Pay for pro winnings?

Nah...I'll pass. Attitudes like this make me stay away from sanctioned tournaments.
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  #97  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:33 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Like many things on these forums, these details vary from place to place.

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Originally Posted by AndyJB View Post
Ive been saying this for awhile now. It really hit home recently when a player who moved from out of state played MA2 in a tournament, took 6th (out of 13) and threw a massive hissy fit in person and online about how back where he's from, he would have won all this plastic,blah blah blah

Here in CO, more people have been embracing "true amateur" events, but they lost the plot along the way. The goal of true amateur events is for them to be cheap, with minimal rewards in order to get more people to play competitively while also enticing them to improve their skills and move into the pro ranks where they can win some actual money.
Few amateurs, and fewer old amateurs, will ever develop to where they can win actual money playing pro. No matter what you do. The goal is to give them competition among similarly-skilled players. It's regrettable that simple competition isn't enough for many, but nonetheless, they're not going to develop their games any faster or any higher if they don't win stuff. And those on the pro track, will rise regardless.

Quote:
However, for whatever reason, true am events here charge an arm and a leg and give out these huge players packs. I have two while trunks in my garage of tournament plastic that I'll never throw. Thats the danger of these big players packs; you are trying to "wow!" the players, but youre going to disappoint most of them with discs they dont throw.
Around here players packs, especially at B- and C-tiers, are vouchers to choose among merchandise. I'd still rather not have them, but at least whatever I get is likely something I'll throw, or at least try out.

Quote:
Either way (huge amateur payouts or huge amateur players packs) you're not really enticing people to focus their game and move up. The less pro players means less entry fees, means less pro payouts.
Very few are being enticed not to move up. The bulk of participants in Am events are either on their way up---they'll get there---or plateaued.

Quote:
Sponsor dollars are hard to come by, even in a very disc golf friendly state like Colorado. Until there is massive pro players (increasing the purse through entry fees) and big-time sponsor dollars we wont see a rise in pro payouts. At least not a significant one.

I mean, we are at a weird point where even C-Tiers sell out in minutes, but we are still having to sell teesign sponsorships for 50 bucks to local players or businesses just to pull the tournament off at a small loss or breaking even.
Around here, the wholesale/retail margin on all that Am merchandise supports the whole structure. Unless tournaments have major fixed expenses like course rental, they're not operating at a loss.

***

None of which really affects the pro payouts. No matter what changes you make in the Am structure or culture, you're not going to see significantly more people willing to pay high dollars in pro divisions where they have little chance to compete. The handful that might make the jump if they can't win as much merch, won't make a big dent in local pro payouts.

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  #98  
Old 06-11-2017, 05:01 PM
Ye Olde Am Ye Olde Am is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Few amateurs, and fewer old amateurs, will ever develop to where they can win actual money playing pro. No matter what you do. The goal is to give them competition among similarly-skilled players. It's regrettable that simple competition isn't enough for many, but nonetheless, they're not going to develop their games any faster or any higher if they don't win stuff.
Amen brother.

The more I age, the more I understand accepting limitations. It's like the poker trope that there's always one sucker, so look around the table and if you don't see any suckers, then the sucker must be you.

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  #99  
Old 06-11-2017, 05:39 PM
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I'm a lifelong Am, not enamored by the merch system, wish we didn't have it, but I understand it. I'm in the 3rd phase of my disc golf career now---that of decline, just trying to retain as much as I can, as long as I can.

But I look at the am field---not just the top of Advanced, but all of the divisions---and I see very few people who could be lured into shelling out lots of money to "compete" in Open, no matter what changes were made at the Am level. Some will eventually rise to that point---most never will.
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  #100  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:12 PM
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davetherocketguy davetherocketguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93EXCivic View Post
Disc golf is weird to me sometimes. In every other sport and competition I have been involved in as an adult (autocrossing, soccer and ultimate), you were competing for pride and a little trophy (maybe a small plastic cone, t-shirt, etc). Yet in disc golf, everyone needs these big awards of plastic and these players packs full of stuff that is never going to be used. Does no one else think this is a bit of a sad reflection of the sport that the thrill of competition isn't enough?

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Thing is the demographic you're talking about here. If you can afford to autocross...you've got some spending money. I don't know about where you live but round these parts the folks I see playing DG a $50 reg fee is HUGE. They are the kind of folk that are on government assistance or making some minimal wage job at a factory or fast food - well not all of them of course. For example, tournaments at Madeline Bertrand sell out OFTEN because they only charge $25 and there's no PDGA membership requirement, no huge players pack...Just playing for some fancy wood trophy and a few random draw door prizes. Drive around Niles, MI sometime and you'll see what I am talking about; not exactly rich neighborhoods...

Not to brag, but I've got a good job and have some spending cash and am looking at playing a B tier in South Bend but I'm looking at a $50 reg fee and $10 penalty for not being a up to date PDGA member. What do I get for my hour drive to the course in the morning and $60? 2 rounds with a bunch of Am3 pro wanna-bes in a tourney I have no hope of even placing. So unless theres some other motivation (like a decent player pack) I really have no interest in going other than the fact a buddy of mine has invited me to come along. Even with a good job even I am hesitating at that $60...

--or--

I could drive an hour in the other direction, spend the $60 on gas and a really nice lunch and play 2 casual rounds without having to put up with some Am3 pro-wanna bes that I've never met before then finish off the evening with the remaining money and watch the Auto Value Super Sprints at Berlin Raceway and get my hillybilly on...

First option sounds like work. Second sounds like fun.

Point is, if you're going to charge a lot of money to people who generally don't make a lot you're going to have to provide motivation for them to attend other than just "pride" or "thrill of competition."

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