#31  
Old 12-20-2014, 04:43 AM
markos markos is offline
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At current moment all our (in Estonian) competitons go to live via http://skoorin.com:
- 60-70% directly via mobile phones without paper (weekly and less major events). The pool has a choice to use a mobile or a paper (or both).
- the major events (like B tier) we are using volunteers to mark to phone, the normal paper are used. But we are moving to realize the idea that 100% will be online.

If you would like to get more about our experiences and use it, contact directly: marko.saviauk@mail.ee.
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  #32  
Old 08-26-2019, 01:17 PM
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esdubya esdubya is offline
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I've been doing some checking on the state of the art on replacing paper scorecards in tournaments with a smartphone app scorecard.

A few questions now. What events are doing it? Does the PDGA allow it?

TDs know about the crush of counting scores, updating player cards and getting the groups re-assigned. I'm looking to make things easier on my volunteers and have a smoother running event.

I heard them talking about it on the Upshot recently as well.
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  #33  
Old 08-26-2019, 01:29 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is online now
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The PDGA doesn't appear to be doing away with paper scorecards any time soon since approving the scores and/or signing the card will continue as an official procedure. Electronic scoring will likely increase in use to accumulate stats and for confirmation to make sure scores on paper and entered in the app match. The best paper alternative might be for TDs and clubs to make laminated erasable cards for their courses and reuse them if using too much paper is a concern. They probably hold up in the rain pretty well using grease pencils for marking.
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  #34  
Old 08-26-2019, 01:40 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esdubya View Post
I've been doing some checking on the state of the art on replacing paper scorecards in tournaments with a smartphone app scorecard.

A few questions now. What events are doing it? Does the PDGA allow it?

TDs know about the crush of counting scores, updating player cards and getting the groups re-assigned. I'm looking to make things easier on my volunteers and have a smoother running event.

I heard them talking about it on the Upshot recently as well.
I don't think we're ever going to see paper scorecards entirely replaced in tournament play. Too many things can go wrong with technology not to have the paper at least as a back up.

As for the PDGA allowing an all electronic scoring event, they're making some big steps towards making it possible so I don't think they're against it at all. The PDGA's browser-based live scoring user interface has undergone a huge upgrade recently. I used it this weekend to live score my cards at an A-tier and I was extremely impressed with its ease of use.

There's a generic tournament-wide password to gain initial access, then it asks for your last name or PDGA number. For this particular event, it was all tee times with groups set up already, so after logging in, I was automatically presented with the card that I was on. No need to select players or anything, though it was still editable (I was able to delete a player who was moved from our card to another just before the round). The scoring interface is very simple, with par scores already defaulted and +/- buttons to adjust each player up and down as needed.

The fascinating part to me, and the reason I think they are moving in the direction of electronically submitted cards, is that at the end of the round, the total scores are presented with the hole by hole scores...essentially a duplicate of the paper card. So math can be verified on the paper card simply by seeing if it matches the electronic one (and vice versa). Then, there is an option for each player in the group to digitally sign the card, consisting of tapping their name and entering their last name or PDGA number. Once all scores have been signed, you submit the card and the scores are instantly added to the official results (with unofficial ratings). No need to wait for tournament staff to manually enter them.

At this point, the tech is there directly from the PDGA to score an event entirely electronically. It's up to tournament directors whether or not they're willing to do it.
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  #35  
Old 08-26-2019, 02:33 PM
aredoubles aredoubles is offline
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From what I can tell, I do think the PDGA is very very close to releasing an official scoring app that can (optionally?) replace paper scorecards.

It comes up at nearly every monthly Board of Directors meeting, for example here's the July meeting minutes:
https://www.pdga.com/files/2019-7-9b...utes_final.pdf
See page 4, Ganz's technology update (every BoD meeting has this section).

One of those meeting minutes provides a link to documentation for the app:
https://www.pdga.com/help/tournament...l-hole-scoring

Quote:
The official hole scoring feature serves as an official digital scorecard for events. It works similarly to the unofficial hole scoring feature but is intended to be used by players as a replacement for the traditional paper scorecard. After reviewing the requirements, check the "Use for official scoring" box on the Setup page in Tournament Manager to enable official hole scoring for your event.

Here are some features the official hole scoring app provides in addition to the standard hole scoring features.

Provides a method for players to confirm and digitally submit the card.
Round scores are automatically recorded so you don't have to verify scores at the end of each round.
The results page is automatically updated as players submit their scores.
The app can record notes on any hole for any player to help store information about provisionals, rule violations, etc.
One of the BoD meeting minutes even mentions TDs being able to make announcements and notifications through the app, I'm guessing for stuff like inclement weather announcements, last-minute rules clarifications, etc.

This all appears to be separate from the official live-scoring app that some tournaments have used, which is documented here:
https://www.pdga.com/help/tournament...nt#livescoring

Quote:
The Hole Scoring feature, often referred to as simply "live scoring", is used for entering unofficial scores for each hole for individual players.
I don't have any inside info or context on these things, it's just what I've gleaned from scanning through BoD meeting minutes while bored at work. More of us should probably be paying attention to those. Ganz's tech section is the only one I've regularly paid attention to.

Last edited by aredoubles; 08-26-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-26-2019, 03:55 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aredoubles View Post
From what I can tell, I do think the PDGA is very very close to releasing an official scoring app that can (optionally?) replace paper scorecards.
I have played in a c tier where it was used (Steve Ganz was one of the organizers). I kept a paper scorecard for my group in addition to someone entering them into the app but I don't think every group did this. I like the fact that it allows you to see where you are relative to the rest of the field at any time and I like the ease of generating useful hole by hole data as a course designer. i hate the idea of relying upon it solely though.

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  #37  
Old 08-26-2019, 03:59 PM
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esdubya esdubya is offline
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Some good threading there.. Nice find 'aredoubles'. Yea it looks like I could have done that at my event this past weekend if I'd known more about it.

Will test it out and look to implement for 2020.
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  #38  
Old 08-26-2019, 04:19 PM
Orioles_Lefty Orioles_Lefty is offline
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If the PDGA were to replace paper scorecards, they would be mandating the ownership of a smart phone and use of phone during the round as requirement for play in a sanctioned tournament. That paper and pen is such a pervasive technology is the strongest reason to keep that technology as the primary means for keeping and reporting scores.

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  #39  
Old 08-26-2019, 06:32 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty View Post
That paper and pen is such a pervasive technology is the strongest reason to keep that technology as the primary means for keeping and reporting scores.
Really? Stop the next ten people you meet off the course and ask if they are carrying paper and pen. Then ask if they are carrying a phone.

Just because we all have to carry paper to play doesn't make it generally pervasive.

Still, I'd always want to keep paper as an official option. The TD can deal with 17 phone-based groups plus that one last phoneless group (which I would be on) a lot easier than dealing with 18 groups using paper.
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  #40  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:02 PM
ToddL ToddL is online now
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In Tournament Manager, you can turn on live scoring with a simple click on the Setup page:



Set up a password and distribute it to your players.
Select whether you want to use Official or Unofficial live scoring. Official Live Scoring will immediately input the round totals into tournament manager when the players submit. Unofficial Live Scoring will just show hole scores and will not affect the scores in tournament manager.

It is up to the TD to decide if he wants to make live scoring mandatory or not. At my tournaments, I always encourage it but tell people it's strictly voluntary. After a few years of pushing it, I'm getting close to 90% compliance (those MA60s aren't too keen on it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp4UomHixfc
https://www.pdga.com/help/tournament...l-hole-scoring

I'm a bit skeptical about whether you should fully rely on it for complete tournament management. It's still really easy for a player to mis-type his score in the app and not notice it. Even though the math will always be right, it's possible that someone could enter an incorrect hole score, and there's a good chance they won't notice they did it until it's too late.
Even if you give players a paper scorecard and tell them "paper is the real official score, electronic is just for fun and making math easier" you can get screwups. Players will blindly write down the total score from live scoring onto the paper without verifying the numbers match.

If you're using the Groups feature (tee times or starting holes) in tournament manager, the players on each card will auto-populate when a player logs into the app. If you don't use the Groups feature, the players will have to select their card mates from a list or type in their names. Pretty easy process either way.

Overall, the app works extremely well, and you should give serious thought to using it at your next tournament.

I print out a few sheets of paper with the following instructions and include them with every scorecard. (Or maybe you can print them on the back of the scorecards or something)

We are asking for a player on each card to volunteer to enter scores for PDGA live scoring. If someone on your card is willing to enter scores, please follow these instructions:
- Navigate to pdga.com/score
- Access code is xxxxxxxx
- Select your division, round #, and names of the players on your card
- BE SURE TO START SCORING ON THE CORRECT HOLE
- Enter each player’s score on each hole
[if you're using Official Scoring:] - At the end of the round, confirm each player's score by clicking the ! button next to their name.

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