So you want to make the basket smaller for Pros? (No, we don't.) Here's how we do it.

[davetherocketguy]

Originally Posted by oldmandiscer

Who cares what course has which basket design. As I said I play on different baskets that catch differently every single day. Do you even disc golf? I play on Mach X, Mach 3, Prodigies various, discatcher, you name it. Do you play on the same basket at every course now? No you don't.

If a new course comes in with a smaller design what are going to do? There are courses with bullseyes or tourney layouts with bullseyes. I didn't hear you cry about it before?

Heck there are tone pole courses, homemade baskets and cones. What are you doing about those?

Plus if you actually played disc golf with actual disc golfers you'd already know that dg'ers care very much about the type of baskets on the course. And if you actually read course reviews here ON THIS VERY SITE you'd already know that reviewers usually rate courses lower with home made baskets or tone poles. Why? Because dg'ers don't like that.

Yeah and how many courses have Bullseye baskets? Two?

[oldmandiscer]

Originally Posted by DavidSauls

The plan's to make putting 10% harder on 3% of the courses each year....that is, make putting 0.3% harder each year, across the board.

Revolution!

Well you have to describe 10% harder, it could be 12-13% drop. Actually the pro's would be nearly missing twice as many putts at 25 feet. ~85% down to ~72% (estimates). So twice as hard? Not really I imagine they would still be almost 100% from 10 feet on in. It's just the slope would be steeper. The further away you are now punishes the approach or drive at a higher percentage.

Yeah I couldn't care less if 99.9% of courses change for any number of years. The idea is for the pro's to start playing them then eventually the trend will migrate to most courses as new baskets are needed (if they want the smaller design).

[oldmandiscer]

Originally Posted by davetherocketguy

Plus if you actually played disc golf with actual disc golfers you'd already know that dg'ers care very much about the type of baskets on the course. And if you actually read course reviews here ON THIS VERY SITE you'd already know that reviewers usually rate courses lower with home made baskets or tone poles. Why? Because dg'ers don't like that.

Yeah and how many courses have Bullseye baskets? Two?

Well of course they care. I'm not going to cry about their baskets though. I appreciate that they are there in the first place. Somebody put the work in to make the course, even handmade baskets so if I might not like them, I still appreciate the work they put in so I could try their course.

The primary driver again is in the title. For the pro's. If it translates to most courses over 30 years, cool. I'll enjoy playing either way. Even with the stupid tree in the middle of the fairway.

[davetherocketguy]

Originally Posted by oldmandiscer

Well of course they care. I'm not going to cry about their baskets though. I appreciate that they are there in the first place. Somebody put the work in to make the course, even handmade baskets so if I might not like them, I still appreciate the work they put in so I could try their course.

The primary driver again is in the title. For the pro's. If it translates to most courses over 30 years, cool. I'll enjoy playing either way. Even with the stupid tree in the middle of the fairway.

WHERE IS YOUR DESIGN?

[oldmandiscer]

Originally Posted by davetherocketguy

WHERE IS YOUR DESIGN?

Why would I give it to you? So you could steal it?

[davetherocketguy]

Originally Posted by oldmandiscer

Why would I give it to you? So you could steal it?

Of all the stupid responses you could have come up with I commend you for coming up with what is clearly the stupidest. ffs

[oldmandiscer]

Originally Posted by davetherocketguy

Of all the stupid responses you could have come up with I commend you for coming up with what is clearly the stupidest. ffs

Your response is rather predictable. Are you ok as well?

[ru4por]

Originally Posted by oldmandiscer

Who cares what course has which basket design. As I said I play on different baskets that catch differently every single day. Do you even disc golf? I play on Mach X, Mach 3, Prodigies various, discatcher, you name it. Do you play on the same basket at every course now? No you don't.

If a new course comes in with a smaller design what are going to do? There are courses with bullseyes or tourney layouts with bullseyes. I didn't hear you cry about it before?

Heck there are tone pole courses, homemade baskets and cones. What are you doing about those?

All made up gibberish. 28 million dollars on infrastructure changes. Stop lying, denying, changing the subject.....tell us about the 28 million dollars needed to change the baskets.

[Steve West]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

Here's some simple math related to elite players throwing rounds under par. Par is theoretically defined and set for a 1000-rated round. Elite tour events typically play courses where the points per throw is around 8. That means a 1056 player would expect to shoot 7 down to shoot their rating. Players typically shoot +/- 6 throws from their rating meaning a 1056 player will shoot within -1 to -13 on courses with par set for 1000 rating. If par is set for blue, 950 level, that moves the 1056 player "normal" under par range to -4 to -18 when par is set too high.

Here's what happens when you make scoring tougher by changing the basket. It simply raises the SSA of the course, but it does not change the over/under scoring range described above because the smaller basket scoring reduction will not be enough to change the appropriate par value set on each hole. So, all you get with this narrow basket change in the big picture is watching top players miss a few more long putts.

Close.



First, your logic seems flawed. You say SSA will increase, but par will not change. If that is the case, it seems players will shoot nearer to par. Say SSA increases 3 throws and par did not change, wouldn't that move the range from {-1 to -13} to {+2 to -10}? Maybe the top players will add fewer than 3 throws, but they will add something, and that something would reduce the magnitude of under-parness.

Second, par is not defined for a 1000-rated round. Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions. Most agree that a 1000-rated player is an expert, so that's not the issue. The issue is that a 1000-rated round is the average score of a 1000-rated player, and

Par is not average.
Par is not average.
Par is not average.

Errorless play by a 1000-rated player can be rated as high as 1030 on a punishing course. More, if the weather is bad.

But that's a side issue. For the purposes of smaller baskets, the question is whether or not par would increase if 3 extra putts were added to the average round.

Par would increase, because some holes are near to being a higher par. The extra 1/6th of a putt per hole would be enough to push some of them over into a higher par. Experts would no longer get enough of the old par score to call it Expected, so par should be adjusted upward.

Now here's the interesting thing about that. (Where have I heard that phrase before?) Par would NOT increase by 3 throws per round. It would increase slower. Why? See the triplet above.

The putts which change a score of 5 to a score of 6 on a par 3 hole would not affect par, but they would increase the average.

Par would only increase when the extra putts change scores that were the old par. And then, only when the old par was within one-sixth of a throw from being a higher par.


I ran the numbers against my database and found that on existing courses the average SSA is 59.1 and correctly set par would average 58.1. If one-sixth of a putt were added to each hole, SSA would average 62.1 and correctly set par would average 59.7.


So, smaller baskets would not have zero effect on too-far-under par. Nor would they fix the problem by the full number of extra throws they add. Smaller baskets would reduce the magnitude of under-par scores by about half of the total increase in putts: 7 under par would become 5.6 under par.

[DavidSauls]

Originally Posted by ru4por

All made up gibberish. 28 million dollars on infrastructure changes. Stop lying, denying, changing the subject.....tell us about the 28 million dollars needed to change the baskets.

If you priced that 28 million at today's prices, and this is a 20-30 year changeover, you need to add inflation into your figures.

But, in fairness, he's saying change the baskets when you would be replacing them due to age, anyway. So if someday, you're going to replace/upgrade a course's baskets, the cost is about the same, regardless of width.

How often do courses replace baskets? None around me ever have, and they're all 20-30 years old. Some have had chain assemblies or bottom trays replaced (originals were shallow), but not the entire target.