#101  
Old 06-27-2019, 03:18 PM
deyo7 deyo7 is offline
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I do see what you mean, that my arm is around 90* give or take where you are talking about, and that this Barry Shultz has a HUGE gap from his upper arm to chest. But I've never even seen that type of throwing before. It looks REALLY weird and not very natural or like it can easily produce good distance with fluidity and ease.

I watch for form, almost exclusively Simon, Eagle, and Paul. I've seen other guys throw obviously, but as far as studying a throw type, Simon and Eagle stick out like a sore thumb to me. But regardless who I watch, I was under the assumption that all that mattered was to get to the power pocket position with your elbow leading and the disc near the center of your chest before you then actually try to extend your forearm and sling it out, with your hand still on the outside of the disc? Same as you are showing this gif/image of Barry with a HUGE arm to chest angle, I can show you lots of other videos/clips of people who throw that don't have that huge arm to chest angle. Like this photo of Simon below. He's maybe around 100* right when the disc gets it's farthest and he starts to rip on it. So it leads me to believe that there are MANY ways to throw the disc far and straight. And that I don't HAVE to have a huge arm to chest angle? But.... Is there a minimum arm to chest angle that is 100% known to be the smallest angle you can have to throw really far and well?


But... I think I see the point you're trying to make. You want me to just TRY keeping a huge arm angle and feeling how that goes for awhile, because it's better to keep a wide arm angle then to let my arm collapse into my chest. Which I'm not doing anymore, but was. And that it will help me to not let my arm get as close to my chest once I go back to a more normal back swing? Is that about right? Thanks
1. I would suggest not copying or worrying about what Simon does. He's going to be hard to replicate.

2. Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. I suggest playing a couple rounds concentrating on pump and keeping wide upper angle in tact. If you're like me, it may lead to a significant AHA moment of your discing career. Although it may seem unnatural or unorthodox, I don't think it gets any more natural once you let go and trust inertia of your arm.

3. Dont see anyone else throwing like this? Maybe not exactly but here are some similar but different styles:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=133733
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  #102  
Old 06-27-2019, 03:29 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Another perspective to try, is pause the video at thrower's release/hit point and mimic this feel. Extend your arm/disc out to where the hit point is, like you have a ball tee'd up and you are meeting it with the sweet spot of the bat. Or tracing your golf club back to the ball. That location and impact is your focus.

If you have a ball tee'd up and you trace your path to it, then set up and start your swing, you just concentrate on getting back to that contact point.

So get to that extended hit point, then set up athletically, and try to get to that hit point. Even if you have to throw at 40% power to start with and minimal backswing/load...just enough to feel a load. Equivalent of a 60 yard chip with a sand wedge. I think it's easier for me to avoid collapsing if I am just thinking "get to this position in leverage", than it is if I'm thinking "please don't collapse this time on the way...".

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  #103  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:09 PM
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I do see what you mean, that my arm is around 90* give or take where you are talking about, and that this Barry Shultz has a HUGE gap from his upper arm to chest. But I've never even seen that type of throwing before. It looks REALLY weird and not very natural or like it can easily produce good distance with fluidity and ease.

I watch for form, almost exclusively Simon, Eagle, and Paul. I've seen other guys throw obviously, but as far as studying a throw type, Simon and Eagle stick out like a sore thumb to me. But regardless who I watch, I was under the assumption that all that mattered was to get to the power pocket position with your elbow leading and the disc near the center of your chest before you then actually try to extend your forearm and sling it out, with your hand still on the outside of the disc? Same as you are showing this gif/image of Barry with a HUGE arm to chest angle, I can show you lots of other videos/clips of people who throw that don't have that huge arm to chest angle. Like this photo of Simon below. He's maybe around 100* right when the disc gets it's farthest and he starts to rip on it. So it leads me to believe that there are MANY ways to throw the disc far and straight. And that I don't HAVE to have a huge arm to chest angle? But.... Is there a minimum arm to chest angle that is 100% known to be the smallest angle you can have to throw really far and well?


But... I think I see the point you're trying to make. You want me to just TRY keeping a huge arm angle and feeling how that goes for awhile, because it's better to keep a wide arm angle then to let my arm collapse into my chest. Which I'm not doing anymore, but was. And that it will help me to not let my arm get as close to my chest once I go back to a more normal back swing? Is that about right? Thanks
Not sure if you read my Best Practices PSA ( https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=126516 ), IMO it is a mistake to only study a few players. I've studied nearly every top distance thrower as well as top pros for the past decade or more. Some players form are much easier to learn than others.

Barry is a multi World/US Champ has sneaky distance and still at over twice Eagle's age will more often than not smoke him in the woods with his smoothness. Trying his form was eye opening. You think it wouldn't work, but it does.

Simon and Eagle have been playing since they could walk, literally, and they have really skinny shoulders which turn much faster than most other people, so their upper arm angle will collapse more as a byproduct of that faster tighter turn radius pulling the arm back. The orangutan factor is very real, skinny shoulders with longer levers really whip hard. McBeth has skinny shoulders and probably the biggest hand ratio in disc golf. The more your upper arm collapses the more strain you put on your rotator cuff as well.


If you think it is a struggle to learn to throw today, you can only imagine what it was like when I was trying to learn to throw 12 or so years ago and struggling to throw 250' as hard as possible. I throw almost twice that with half the effort and I'm 40yrs old, 5'7", and built like a bowling ball. Trying to explain the throw in words is really hard because it takes place in a second with a very complex motion of the whole body. Thing is that disc golf really is much like many other sports if you look at it the right way. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=134167

Camera angles can be very deceiving, you are looking at a 2D picture rather than seeing the 3D motion happening. I think you are also not realizing the forward spine tilt that Simon and Eagle have in your pics a few posts back, they are wide there if you rotate the frame to a vertical spine or tilt your head to it. The spine is changing tilt throughout the whole throw moving forward. Their athletic forward tilt chest toward knees allows upper arm to hang wider more underneath the shoulder away from the chest rather than coming across the chest with the upper arm high and pinned back. Baseball and golf hit with the spine tilted back instead of forward. You should be thinking about the disc golf BH more as a submarine pitch backhand, and FH is submarine(I used to pitch sub). https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...&postcount=792

Earlier you asked about the foot pivot and you are correct. You really don't want your foot to spin out, except that in disc golf BH you have to turn much further back and also bring a lot more forward momentum into the plant, so that torque will really build up in your leg if you don't allow it dissipate one way or another depending on the dynamics of your speed and balance and posture. When you are balanced behind the heel, the foot will tend to spin out on the heel quicker. If you are more forward balanced toward toes, it tends to delay the spin out on the toes or sometimes heel, it just happens, sometimes I can't even tell which happened or that my foot even pivoted, but I just feel balanced to the finish thru the pivot. If you watch David Wiggins - current world record holder his foot doesn't spin until after release. Same with former recorder hold Ken Jarvis. They and myself extend up on the front leg to dissipate that torque on it more without losing the transfer upward to the arm/disc. If you don't feel any pain then I wouldn't worry about it. It's really not something to think about. The foot will pivot if it needs to when you are properly balanced to the shot.

Simon is way wider than you and starting low and finishing upward while you are doing the opposite. You have to throw upward to get the nose down. You are trying to throw downward and throwing nose up/airbouncing the disc up and losing a ton of speed from lift induced drag and stalling out way early in the glide phase from the nose being pitched up. I would suggest taking a look at your grip, the last post in my PSA has a lot on that.

Flat swing plane does not exist:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forum...d.php?t=134415

Don't kill me for my crude drawing here:



IMO the smoothest purest form ever:

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  #104  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:01 PM
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SuperWookie SuperWookie is offline
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I have not actually seen that link, so thank you. I have seen quite a bit of your stuff as well as other intro to the sport posts here and there. I will go through all that stuff as I have time. Iím sure it gets kind of frustrating trying to help all of us, when you have already posted a lot of the info in the past, haha. So thank you for being so patient with not only myself, but all the rest of us.

I have never heard of Barry and never seen him throw. That's why I said his swing looks so odd. I have never seen anyone throw so weird before. And I never doubted that he was a great player. Just stating that I've never seen his throw or style But Iíll watch some of his throws when I get time. I know I said I ďmostlyĒ watch Simon, Eagle and Paul. And I do. But I have seen lots of other pros throw. Just donít always remember their names or their throwing styles, and plus I'm not trying to emulate a lot of them. Some of the pros have pretty ugly looking styles that looked forced and awkward during some or all of the their throw. That is why I said I mostly like watching Simon and Eagle as their throwing style is something I want to ďtryĒ and emulate. Soooo smooth, yet so much distance. A lot like Freddy Couples or Ernie Els, who were my major influences on my golf swing. I know I wonít ever throw exactly like them, and Iím sure Iíll never throw as far as they do. Thatís not my goal. But as in all sports, we all gravitate towards a few people we just ďjiveĒ with better, and so far, they are those people.

I definitely have noticed a lot of interesting styles of throwing while watching some of the pros play. ButÖ. I donít want to try and emulate someone that has a throwing style I donít like, and that looks awkward, forced or just bizarre.

Like, in golf, I would NEVER in a million years show a new golfer Jim Furyks swing and say, he buddy, go out there and try to hit like Jim! His swing is insanely horrible, right up until he hits the ball. But that is all that matters. He knows how to get his club to the ball well using his odd style. I know Jimís whole swing story, and know that ONLY Jim can hit like Jim, and that trying to emulate him will be a bad road to go down for a new player. Jim can get the club where it needs to be right before he hits the ball, and it all works out. But itís not a swing you would ever want to try and emulate. Just like I don't like this Barry guys throwing style. Or James Conrad, and I've seen some others where the follow through is just heinous and so out of balance. But they all get the disc to the center of their chest, with the elbow leading, and the wrist on the outside of the disc and can really let it fly! But that is why I noticed Simon and Eagle right away. They are thin like me, they have long arms like me, and just have a great throwing motion that looks effortless, that attracts me to their style. And obviously they crush! So they are my people so far I would like to try and emulate, all while learning from ALL types of throwing styles. I'm definitely going to try and work on this constant wide arm angle type throw that Barry uses and see how it goes, and what it can teach me, to then help me incorporate some ideas and feelings into my own throwing style

And trust me, I think about that often! How people who started playing this sport 5-10 years ago had almost NOTHING to help out or go off of. That must have been BRUTAL!!! They had to learn on their own, in a field for years and years before they were even half way decent. And the only people that probably got half way decent were the ones that were lucky enough to play rounds with some local pros that were nice enough to help out or give them some tips. So I feel the pain of people such as yourself and other players who have been in those shoes. And that is why I am so thankful for this forum and for people such as yourself and HUB and so many others that share their experiences and knowledge that has taken them 5-10 years of hard work and dedication, usually on their own!

And that is also why I realized a few weeks ago, that this type of learning throw written word and videos is so hard to utilize and has serious limitations. Itís great in it's own way, but has serious limitations. Itís amazing all the videos you and others have made in order to try and pass on your knowledge. But as you know, 5 mins in person with someone could accomplish more than 5 weeks of constant videotaping and back and forth conversations. Thereís no substitute for in person learning from another human. So Iím really really hoping this local pro that is going to help me today and hopefully more in the future can finally help me break through some of these sticking points Iím having. And once he does, Iíll be well on my way to implementing a LOT of the ideas and drills your purport for all of us. Iíll finally understand them, and hopefully be able to explain to others how it feels in my own words, etc. And I do think that if more experts or pros were on here helping out, that a lot more people would be getting better and finally understanding things they are stuck on. As more ways of describing something is always better.

Iíve read some things from your point of view that make no sense, and then read it a different way from HUB and it totally makes sense, and vice versa. And neither of you are wrong. You are both right. Because you are just trying your best to describe a complicated full body movement that takes split second to accomplish in the best way you know how. And it will make sense with some, and not others. And I once again, I canít thank people like yourself, HUB, et al. enough for all the work and videos and help you provide to the rest of us! Itís really quite astounding how much time you take out of your life to help the rest of us out of the goodness of your heart and your desire to see others get better. Very much appreciated!
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  #105  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:51 PM
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Just like I don't like this Barry guys throwing style. Or James Conrad, and I've seen some others where the follow through is just heinous and so out of balance.
I'd argue just the opposite. Guys like Barry, KJ Nybo, Brinster, Andrew Fish, and Michael Johansen have more simplified forms that are way easier to emulate or take something from. Compared to perfect form, it may look wonky, but McBeth, Lizotte, and Eagle all create so much torque through the lower body, it's nearly impossible to emulate because point A to point Z is so far apart.

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  #106  
Old 06-28-2019, 01:58 PM
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Accidental duplicate message
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  #107  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:28 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
And that is also why I realized a few weeks ago, that this type of learning throw written word and videos is so hard to utilize and has serious limitations. Itís great in it's own way, but has serious limitations. Itís amazing all the videos you and others have made in order to try and pass on your knowledge. But as you know, 5 mins in person with someone could accomplish more than 5 weeks of constant videotaping and back and forth conversations. Thereís no substitute for in person learning from another human. So Iím really really hoping this local pro that is going to help me today and hopefully more in the future can finally help me break through some of these sticking points Iím having. And once he does, Iíll be well on my way to implementing a LOT of the ideas and drills your purport for all of us. Iíll finally understand them, and hopefully be able to explain to others how it feels in my own words, etc. And I do think that if more experts or pros were on here helping out, that a lot more people would be getting better and finally understanding things they are stuck on. As more ways of describing something is always better.
I wonder if Skype lessons would be effective. Sure, not as good as in person but it would at least be real-time feedback.

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  #108  
Old 06-28-2019, 02:59 PM
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Simon is way wider than you and starting low and finishing upward while you are doing the opposite. You have to throw upward to get the nose down. You are trying to throw downward and throwing nose up/airbouncing the disc up and losing a ton of speed from lift induced drag and stalling out way early in the glide phase from the nose being pitched up. I would suggest taking a look at your grip, the last post in my PSA has a lot on that.
Trust me, I know how Simon is wider. I was just using that example, as I was confused how I was ďcollapsingĒ, when Iím not. I know my arm angle isnít great yet, but itís much better than just a month ago when I started this process. And I obviously want to get better, and creating a wide warm angle and keeping it is important. But what I wanted to know is WHY is so important to keep a wide arm angle when I see Simon and others during certain throws not keeping as wide an arm as you guys say we have too?

I WANT to start low and finish around and upward, I just canít right now. Which is VERY strange as I had a HUGE follow through in golf and actually had to work on keeping my balance as a lot of my shots were great, but Iíd get so far through and around, that Iíd almost fall over in the follow through with my right shoulder pointing at the target, a la Rory McElroy. I donít know how right now, to start low, keep it mid and finish up and around. I try for that, and it doesnít come out that way on film. And the other thing that drives me crazy is how do I stop letting the disc ride up my back arm like that first clip shows?!?! Itís sooo frustrating. When I keep my arm loose and really try to use my body to whip my arm through, that is what happens on my turn back. If I purposely try to keep my arm low, then come through mid and finish high, the shot is HORRIBLE. Way high, way left, and no power.

And my grip is something that is always bothering me. No matter the disc type. I canít find a grip that feels like I have a good hook into AND keep the disc inline with my forearm. Iím actually going to try out a few today and this weekend and see what kind of results and feel I get from them. Going to try a version of a 2 finger DFP like grip that SlowPlastic showed in a video of his to someone else. Then the MJ fan grip that you use. As well as that DFP grip I see everyone talking about that a lot of the top pros have been using. I have big hands and long fingers and I just never feel like I can hold onto the disc well WHILE also keeping it inline with my forearm. I can only find a grip that does one or the other, or some mashup of the two. The best grip I have as of right now is a 3 finger grip where my pinky, ring, and middle finger are more or less hooked into the rim, and the index just has to lay over the edge of the underside of the rim. Not hooked in, but not like a putter either. That is the best I have found so far. But I guess my other question is, is just gripping it properly going to throw it nose down, or do I have to actively worry and concentrate on turning my thumb over towards the target. Like Mike C says, spilling the coffee? Almost like trying to hit a huge top spin backhand in tennis? Because Iíve tried that a few times and it felt weird and didnít really do anything different. My throwing motion is so weird if you look from the side. The disc goes like this: flat, then I pump it forward and let it fall back. It then keeps riding up higher and higher until I finally plant, then shift my weight target ward, then start pulling once Iím planted, and the disc starts to come down. But then RIGHT near the hit point, somehow my arm miraculously bounces up back to a upward trajectory path and the disc then comes out nose up. And somehow my arm comes around short (not out in front and around) and very low. Iím literally trying to do the opposite and yet it comes out that way. No idea how to fix this weird soft V shaped disc path.

Trust me, I want to come in lower, then mid and flat and around like your or Simon or any good thrower of the disc. I just canít right now, and have no clue how to do it. I swing a hammer, and itís just like that, put a disc in my hand, and itís gone. I canít even begin to imagine how many feet of distance Iím losing because of the nose up angle and this ridiculous waste of energy with that v shape motion in my swing. Any ideas on how to fix those are going to be HUGE in getting me to throw farther and straighter with ease. Thanks again man. Iíll let everyone know how my lesson goes and get some more video up for critique and help.
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  #109  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:44 PM
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I was confused how I was ďcollapsingĒ, when Iím not. I know my arm angle isnít great yet, but itís much better than just a month ago when I started this process. And I obviously want to get better, and creating a wide warm angle and keeping it is important. But what I wanted to know is WHY is so important to keep a wide arm angle when I see Simon and others during certain throws not keeping as wide an arm as you guys say we have too?
You likely are collapsing, but the reason you think you're seeing the pro's round is their engagement/power pocket/hit point is earlier than yours because their arm speed is a lot faster.

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  #110  
Old 06-28-2019, 04:31 PM
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Also check out James Conrad throw a soft shot, how it looks like any other players' X-step and he has a very controlled finish position. This is his fundamental form, it's very solid. He just tends to add a massive run up routine and lets himself get pulled through the shot way more after release because of it.


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