#31  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:37 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Originally Posted by keepitfun View Post
it's really quite simple a bad throw on a par three will not allow a birdie look but on many par 4 and 5s you can recover and still get that birdie look
With this in mind,
I've come to the conclusion that it's practically impossible to make a course that good players can't defeat. Even our 10,000 foot wooded courses routinely get shredded by the top pros (Iron Hill, WR Jackson, Maple Hill, Hornets Nest). They're gonna lace 500' drives in the woods, and they're gonna hit some 50' putts, they're gonna get a ton of birdies, and there's nothing we can do about it.

However, what we can do is prevent them from saving birdie or par when they have an errant shot. If a player misses the fairway, I want to punish them for missing. None of this "save it with a great shot" nonsense. If you go off the fairway, you barely deserve a par, much less any chance in hell of a birdie. Unfortunately, the only way to accomplish this is narrow fairways with ungodly thick rough, or massive amounts of OB.

This also means that you have to reserve the rough for truly bad shots, not just unlucky kicks. No more chaos trees in the middle of the fairway, no more multi-route fairways. Just a single fairway, as narrow as possible but wide enough to be fair, and no clearing anything off the fairway. Throw in some doglegs to prevent eagle possibilities. No over-the-top lines ever allowed. Hell, stick in some windmills and waterfalls while we're at it.
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Last edited by ToddL; 10-21-2019 at 12:39 PM.
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:41 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
With this in mind,
I've come to the conclusion that it's practically impossible to make a course that good players can't defeat. Even our 10,000 foot wooded courses routinely get shredded by the top pros (Iron Hill, WR Jackson, Maple Hill, Hornets Nest). They're gonna lace 500' drives in the woods, and they're gonna hit some 50' putts, they're gonna get a ton of birdies, and there's nothing we can do about it.

However, what we can do is prevent them from saving birdie or par when they have an errant shot. If a player misses the fairway, I want to punish them for missing. None of this "save it with a great shot" nonsense. If you go off the fairway, you barely deserve a par, much less any chance in hell of a birdie. Unfortunately, the only way to accomplish this is narrow fairways with ungodly thick rough, or massive amounts of OB.

This also means that you have to reserve the rough for truly bad shots, not just unlucky kicks. No more chaos trees in the middle of the fairway, no more multi-route fairways. Just a single fairway, as narrow as possible but wide enough to be fair, and no clearing anything off the fairway. Throw in some doglegs to prevent eagle possibilities. No over-the-top lines ever allowed. Hell, stick in some windmills and waterfalls while we're at it.
You're supposed to have a bunch of emojis included when you write satire...

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  #33  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:47 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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I've never made a joke in my life.
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2019, 01:11 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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I've never made a joke in my life.
In that case your vision of high end disc golf sounds like some apocalyptic nightmare of pitching out to fairways and the elimination of the creativity of the recovery game that is one of the most interesting facets of the game from my personal standpoint.

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  #35  
Old 10-21-2019, 04:01 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
With this in mind,
I've come to the conclusion that it's practically impossible to make a course that good players can't defeat.
Why in the world would anybody WANT to? A course should be designed to allow the best (that day) to defeat it. Not easily, and not by all of the good players, but it should be possible. If a few dozen good players are on the course, a few will get lucky enough to have a great round. Do you want great rounds to get bad scores? If so, why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
Even our 10,000 foot wooded courses routinely get shredded by the top pros (Iron Hill, WR Jackson, Maple Hill, Hornets Nest). They're gonna lace 500' drives in the woods, and they're gonna hit some 50' putts, they're gonna get a ton of birdies, and there's nothing we can do about it.
Is that what shredded means?

You could take away the possibility of making 500’ drives and 50 foots putts, but isn’t that exactly what we want to see and aspire to?

You can do something about a ton of birdies. Just set par lower. (Even the toughest pars out there are usually still a throw or two too low per course.)

Also, you could get rid of some birdies by making more of the holes the no-fun type where nobody birdies. (Think 650 foot par 3s.) But would it be worth it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
However, what we can do is prevent them from saving birdie or par when they have an errant shot. If a player misses the fairway, I want to punish them for missing. None of this "save it with a great shot" nonsense. If you go off the fairway, you barely deserve a par, much less any chance in hell of a birdie. Unfortunately, the only way to accomplish this is narrow fairways with ungodly thick rough, or massive amounts of OB.
What’s wrong with saving par with a great throw? If you set par according to the definition (the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions) it would take a truly great throw to save par after a bad throw. That’s the same kind of accomplishment it should take to get birdie. Getting birdie means being better than the competition. Some players should be allowed better than the competition. It shouldn’t matter whether they did it with a great tee throw or a great recovery throw. As long as we’re talking about truly great throws.
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Originally Posted by ToddL View Post
This also means that you have to reserve the rough for truly bad shots, not just unlucky kicks. No more chaos trees in the middle of the fairway, no more multi-route fairways. Just a single fairway, as narrow as possible but wide enough to be fair, and no clearing anything off the fairway. Throw in some doglegs to prevent eagle possibilities. No over-the-top lines ever allowed. Hell, stick in some windmills and waterfalls while we're at it.
Those are all design options, but they won’t do what you want. You can make a 600 foot tunnel and somebody will be lucky enough to pipe it down almost the whole way and make a throw-in.

As for eagle possibilities, if you’re seeing multiple eagles on a hole, its par is almost certainly too low. No matter the design.

To sum up: First set par correctly, then see if radical designs are needed.
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  #36  
Old 10-22-2019, 05:11 PM
mopar mopar is offline
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As a designer you need to get over the mindset of trying to "make a course that good players can't defeat."

It's not about trying to defeat the good players. I have wrestled with this myself. You need to be ok with good players scoring well. Make it challenging yet fair.
It's not your design vs the players.

Last edited by mopar; 10-22-2019 at 05:14 PM.
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  #37  
Old 10-22-2019, 05:19 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Originally Posted by mopar View Post
As a designer you need to get over the mindset of trying to "make a course that good players can't defeat."

It's not about trying to defeat the good players. I have wrestled with this myself. You need to be ok with good players scoring well. Make it challenging yet fair.
It's not your design vs the players.
Looks like another time to post this story on Players versus Courses

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  #38  
Old 10-22-2019, 11:26 PM
mopar mopar is offline
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That's an old article that I think most people who have researched course design have read. It does have some good info but there is also info there that I disagree with...it is opinionated at the very least.

I'm happy to discuss it if you'd like but I wont derail this thread doing so.
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  #39  
Old 10-22-2019, 11:37 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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Originally Posted by mopar View Post
That's an old article that I think most people who have researched course design have read. It does have some good info but there is also info there that I disagree with...it is opinionated at the very least.

I'm happy to discuss it if you'd like but I wont derail this thread doing so.
Sure, send a PM with your thoughts. I reread it today and think it's even more relevant today than it was 6 years ago.
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  #40  
Old 10-23-2019, 12:56 AM
mopar mopar is offline
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Will do, give me a few days. Going to sleep now and work is busy.
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