#631  
Old 11-07-2020, 11:33 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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Originally Posted by seedlings View Post
If you said hips shift to lead leg, we’d all agree, because Paige thinks about this literally all the time.
And as they shift rotation happens. It's not something you neccesarily feel so much but it is happening. PP is awesome, she's definitely the best female all around player in my opinion. But some of her instruction on what you should do is rather interesting to say the least.
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  #632  
Old 11-09-2020, 11:52 AM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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This shouldn't be an argument, Rodeo is 100% correct in that the hips start opening during the plant, before all weight is on the front foot. Is that useful information? Debatable, but its pretty easy to see if you look frame-by-frame. I think the timing is such that you couldn't really "try" to do this and its not very useful to think about.

Paul at point where hips are furthest turned back:



Paul at first point where all weight is on plant foot:



Video if you want to frame-by-frame yourself:



You'll notice that Jerm, the worst backhand thrower of this group, actually starts opening up the hips much earlier than the other 3.

Last edited by UhhNegative; 11-09-2020 at 11:55 AM.
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  #633  
Old 11-09-2020, 12:41 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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It's not really something you feel so much. It's just really important that one doesn't think "all" their weight shifts before any hip rotation happens. There are drills (I won't name them) out there that incorrectly teach to shift all the weight before any hip rotation. That's bad advice.
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  #634  
Old 11-09-2020, 01:26 PM
scooby snack scooby snack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UhhNegative View Post
This shouldn't be an argument, Rodeo is 100% correct in that the hips start opening during the plant, before all weight is on the front foot. Is that useful information? Debatable, but its pretty easy to see if you look frame-by-frame. I think the timing is such that you couldn't really "try" to do this and its not very useful to think about.

Paul at point where hips are furthest turned back:



Paul at first point where all weight is on plant foot:



Video if you want to frame-by-frame yourself:



You'll notice that Jerm, the worst backhand thrower of this group, actually starts opening up the hips much earlier than the other 3.
Rodeo keeps pitching the idea that power comes from intentionally and forcefully rotating the hips, because he sees the pelvic bone and femur re-align as players shift their weight from rear foot, to front foot.

Hips play an important part in generating power, but it’s a lateral shift towards the target, not a forceful rotation as he advocates.

Notice how JK plants more open than the others. The re-alignment of his hips is more noticeable.

Rodeo likes to take the opposing view just to argue with people.
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  #635  
Old 11-09-2020, 01:50 PM
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This thread is just always going to be stuck in limbo because of the tactics being used. There are only a couple of actual possible points being made:

1.) Technically, hips open before the plant. This is a purely semantic point. Bio-mechanically it is correct to concede this point. No one here is making any argument against this premise. A still frame image will be shared to show this, and this fact is abused over and over by...someone here, to go on to say:

2.) Hips open before the plant in order to deliberately begin rotating from the rear, and this is the ideal disc golf form, the evidence being that this swing can be used to throw 350 feet! This point is then endlessly denied by players who throw much farther.

Repeat, forever, I guess.

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  #636  
Old 11-09-2020, 01:50 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooby snack View Post
Rodeo keeps pitching the idea that power comes from intentionally and forcefully rotating the hips, because he sees the pelvic bone and femur re-align as players shift their weight from rear foot, to front foot.

Hips play an important part in generating power, but it’s a lateral shift towards the target, not a forceful rotation as he advocates.

Notice how JK plants more open than the others. The re-alignment of his hips is more noticeable.

Rodeo likes to take the opposing view just to argue with people.
I agree, the rotation of the hips, when it actually matters, happens because of the brace.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:18 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
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Rotation of the hips is dynamic into and through the brace. It's not a result of the brace. The hips begin to rotate and load up and then the torso and upper body rotate and that is what powerfully ejects the disc. Even though one doesn't necessarily feel it, the core muscles around the midsection play a major role in how far the disc travels when thrown correctly.
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:24 PM
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http://www.golfbytourmiss.com/2019/11/80046/
Downswing torso rotation

The third source of power from the body is torso rotation, which has been called a proximal – to – distal (pelvis before shoulders/thorax) rotation or a kinematic sequence. The main reason that this is so important is that the large, powerful core muscles of the body get stretched during the backswing and can therefore contract more forcefully during the downswing, much like the stretched elastic of a slingshot-catapult releases more forcefully. As the golfer pushes backwards through the trail foot and forwards through the lead foot (measured as antero-posterior shear forces through force plates), to create stability in those directions, the powerful trail side core muscles use the ground as purchase to rotate forcefully off of.
This movement will happen without a golfer’s volition, because stretched muscles will contract!

Once again, research has shown that more skilled golfers are able to rotate to faster. In the words of Okuda et al. (“Trunk Rotation and Weight Transfer Patterns between Skilled and Low Skilled Golfers”, 2010, rotation in the https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...7954/),“Pelvic horizontal rotation*in the downswing motion occurred significantly earlier with a rapid weight transfer to the lead foot in the skilled golfers while the low skilled golfers showed a delay in these motions”.

There are two important points we can assess from the study. Firstly, less skilled golfers cannot rotate and shift weight as fast, so perhaps the weight may not get shifted adequately to the lead foot before rotation begins, leaving “weight” behind and perhaps creating curved shots.

Secondly, note that the authors refer to the rotation as a “pelvic horizontal rotation”. However, golfers are typically asked to make a backswing by rotating the shoulders around a spine which is flexed forwards at address, resulting in an oblique position of the torso at the top of the backswing. From this position, a golfer’s pelvis is expected to fire on a mainly horizontal plane during late backswing or early downswing. As mentioned earlier, muscles that are stretched contract more forcefully. Which muscles have been stretched to be able to produce a horizontal downswing rotation from an oblique top of backswing torso position? The main muscle group for forceful downswing torso rotation is the trail side external oblique. This muscle group has both vertical and horizontal fibres. When the torso is rotated obliquely, the vertical fibres may be stretched to a greater extent, resulting in a more downward rather than targetward movement of the torso, and perhaps a more steep shoulder path (and thus arms-, and club-path) than desirable.

And once again, therefore, the solution for all golfers (even if they’re highly skilled, because under certain circumstances and with certain body positions, their bodies too become incapable of correct sequencing of the many downswing movements) is to position the body so that there is minimal and optimally timed torso rotation.
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  #639  
Old 11-09-2020, 06:25 PM
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I remember when I first started, everything was slow and out of time. Then as I progressed my speed and timing improved. Distance wise, the gains I have seen come from getting faster rotation through the zone- conditioning the muscles. The correct timing adds a wee bit more. Getting the hips rotating and then the torso and on up the kinetic chain is mostly about developing the muscle groups to fire faster and more effectively with power. My theory on this is that as a player progresses and gets better they can rotate much quicker and as such can delay just a bit longer to unwind. It's why you see the pros able to delay until the very last and then everything happens very quickly and explosively. Thus it can give the illusion that the hips aren't rotating until the front foot has firmly planted. The reality is that they are rotating coming into foot plant. Its just that they can delay just a bit longer than amateurs because they can rotate faster later.

Last edited by RoDeO; 11-09-2020 at 06:28 PM.
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  #640  
Old 11-09-2020, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
My theory on this is that as a player progresses and gets better they can rotate much quicker and as such can delay just a bit longer to unwind. It's why you see the pros able to delay until the very last and then everything happens very quickly and explosively. Thus it can give the illusion that the hips aren't rotating until the front foot has firmly planted. The reality is that they are rotating coming into foot plant. Its just that they can delay just a bit longer than amateurs because they can rotate faster later.
Pros can delay longer because they actually counter-rotate more with better balance/posture and backswing sequence.

Most Ams hit the top of the backswing too early/too far away from plant and out of sequence and lean/tipped off balance.

It doesn't take muscle conditioning or explosion to change these flaws, it requires learning a different movement pattern, and mindset, concept or swing philosophy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSHqnYNijw#t=2m3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=3m45s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujq9aANGQe4#t=4m15s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpA_NL2c0qg#t=1m20s
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