#21  
Old 04-29-2012, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by harr0140 View Post
Im going to have to read this when I have some time . . . looks interesting and important to a fledgling course designer
As another aspiring designer......From what I have learned in the last 6 years as a serious player and the last year as a "serious aspiring designer" Is that I see all sides of these arguments as very valid points, as far as what exactly determines par for a hole.....After reading all the info I could on the dgcd group I think no matter what, there are just going to be some holes out there that are always going to spark debate. I've only played a few of the courses up for discussion, but I also come from a strong background in ball golf and I find myself comparing the two sports constantly.

In ball golf on any 18 hole course they rank the difficulty of there holes right?

So why not do the same for disc golf? Use the distances and close range par to the best of everyones interpretation determine par.....and then rank the holes in difficulty based on the scoring average (for each skill level)

ie...If you have a par 4 that ends up 30/40/30 rank that hole in the middle somewhere......

Pardon my ignorance if this is or has been brought up before in discussion, but again after reading through this thread and some others I have to say that everybody has some great points and great arguments......but when I play devils advocate I feel (and this is my opinion) that there are holes no matter what is decided on "certain" holes.

I do agree completely with ridding the 2/68/30 type holes though.....they are pretty boring
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Last edited by BionicRib; 04-29-2012 at 03:28 AM.
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2012, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BionicRib View Post
......but when I play devils advocate I feel (and this is my opinion) that there are holes no matter what is decided on "certain" holes.
I meant to say.....but when I play devils advocate I feel that there are "holes" in some of the arguments on all sides.........when "controversial holes" are discussed.

sorry guys caught that after the editing time had passed
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Old 04-29-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BionicRib View Post
I do agree completely with ridding the 2/68/30 type holes though.....they are pretty boring
"Boring", in which way?
---High percentage of same scores?
---Only 2 scores generally produced (excluding the 2% outliers)?
---Not birdieable (is 30/68/2 any better)?
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:59 AM
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[important point mentioned by someone else in one of the many previous discussions on this topic . . . ]

In ball golf, the driving distance between a scratch golfer and one with a 15 handicap is not going to be that great. The difference in their game more often is the upshot and putts.

In disc golf, the difference between a 1000 rated player and a 850 rated player is more often a function of the length of their drives . . . the 850 rated player is going to hit most of their 20 foot putts just like the 1000 rated player, but on a 500ft hole, the player who drives 450ft is going to have a much easier time finishing the hole than a player who drives 300 ft.

Setting pars for similarly rated players = easy
Setting pars that work for everyone across the board like in ball golf = impossible to do without having at least one segment of the population complaining that it's wrong
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
"Boring", in which way?
---High percentage of same scores?
---Only 2 scores generally produced (excluding the 2% outliers)?
---Not birdieable (is 30/68/2 any better)?
not birdieable and I could deal with 30/68/2
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ratskrad View Post
[important point mentioned by someone else in one of the many previous discussions on this topic . . . ]

In ball golf, the driving distance between a scratch golfer and one with a 15 handicap is not going to be that great. The difference in their game more often is the upshot and putts.

In disc golf, the difference between a 1000 rated player and a 850 rated player is more often a function of the length of their drives . . . the 850 rated player is going to hit most of their 20 foot putts just like the 1000 rated player, but on a 500ft hole, the player who drives 450ft is going to have a much easier time finishing the hole than a player who drives 300 ft.

Setting pars for similarly rated players = easy
Setting pars that work for everyone across the board like in ball golf = impossible to do without having at least one segment of the population complaining that it's wrong
I see the point, but at that distance (in a wide open field of a hole) I still see them both getting a lot of 3's (meaning just about every 1000 rated player gets an easy 3 and a probably less than 5% gets a 2) the 850 rated player still gets a 3 and lets say 30% or less gets a 4)

5/90/5 for the gold level (comparable to a short easy par 4 in ball golf)
1/70/29 for the 850 player (making it a decent par 4 for that skill level)

You would need to handicap the holes for each skill level. Sure you will still have the arguments on certain holes......In which case round the par down and make it the #1, #2 most difficult hole on the course.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:52 PM
ratskrad ratskrad is offline
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Originally Posted by BionicRib View Post
I see the point, but at that distance (in a wide open field of a hole) I still see them both getting a lot of 3's (meaning just about every 1000 rated player gets an easy 3 and a probably less than 5% gets a 2) the 850 rated player still gets a 3 and lets say 30% or less gets a 4)

5/90/5 for the gold level (comparable to a short easy par 4 in ball golf)
1/70/29 for the 850 player (making it a decent par 4 for that skill level)

You would need to handicap the holes for each skill level. Sure you will still have the arguments on certain holes......In which case round the par down and make it the #1, #2 most difficult hole on the course.
I agree with the assessment of this hypothetical hole, but I was speaking more in generalities . . . that the formula of # of shots to reach the 'green' + 1.4 or 2 or whatever doesn't work as well across the board for disc golf because of the greater disparity in driving distances.
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Old 04-29-2012, 12:55 PM
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The formula still works in DG if you establish different tees like they do in ball golf to make it work.
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Old 04-29-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratskrad View Post
[important point mentioned by someone else in one of the many previous discussions on this topic . . . ]

In ball golf, the driving distance between a scratch golfer and one with a 15 handicap is not going to be that great. The difference in their game more often is the upshot and putts.

In disc golf, the difference between a 1000 rated player and a 850 rated player is more often a function of the length of their drives . . . the 850 rated player is going to hit most of their 20 foot putts just like the 1000 rated player, but on a 500ft hole, the player who drives 450ft is going to have a much easier time finishing the hole than a player who drives 300 ft.

Setting pars for similarly rated players = easy
Setting pars that work for everyone across the board like in ball golf = impossible to do without having at least one segment of the population complaining that it's wrong
... But the competitive difference is still 15 strokes in both cases, regardless of whether they come from the long game or the short game. Why do you want to set different pars for different skill levels? In my opinion, setting up par so that a 900-rated player expects to be at or under par for the course, is a form of grade inflation. That may reflect my bias towards the ball golf idea of par, which is much more difficult to achieve for the average golfer than a disc golf par is for the average disc golfer. But I can't shake my instinctive distaste for, as another person said, "the unalienable right to birdie." Scoring a birdie should inspire pride in your outstanding play, not relief that you didn't lose a stroke to the field. And at the same time, a player below the expert (advanced or pro) level should be proud of pars, and truly excited about birdies, and much less unhappy with himself for bogeys than an expert.

I say all this with the suspicion that there are enough differences between the two sports that par can't be made to mean the same thing in disc golf that it does in ball golf.

Last edited by Lewis; 04-29-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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  #30  
Old 04-29-2012, 01:22 PM
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Lewis - Why do you want to set different pars for different skill levels? In my opinion, setting up par so that a 900-rated player expects to be at or under par for the course, is a form of grade inflation.
Ball golf does have different pars for different skill levels but you don't see it because the pars are mostly the same but from different tees. In DG, we usually don't have the luxury of up to five tees like BG that have the same par for that skill level. So we sometimes need to have two different pars for the same tee to properly account for different skill ranges.
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