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View Poll Results: Either neither or both
Pink is correct 5 31.25%
White is correct 0 0%
Neither is correct 4 25.00%
Both are correct 7 43.75%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 08-06-2021, 11:10 AM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
I agree, this is a rulebook decision. If the player takes more liberal relief, then the other players could call and second a penalty for misplay.

That leads to another problem though. The player's recourse is to appeal the call in which case he'd have to play a provisional from a lie he considers too close to the ants. Catch-22.
Which would be the provisional? Per the ruling (by the players), his lie is the one close to the ants. So until the decision is appealed and ruled upon....that is the appropriate/legal lie and play. The player throwing from a different spot, further away from the ants...would be the 'optional' throw and make that one the provisional.
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  #32  
Old 08-06-2021, 05:50 PM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Which would be the provisional? Per the ruling (by the players), his lie is the one close to the ants. So until the decision is appealed and ruled upon....that is the appropriate/legal lie and play. The player throwing from a different spot, further away from the ants...would be the 'optional' throw and make that one the provisional.
It's a disagreement on the correct lie, and the player played from what he considers the correct lie. So, from the player's POV, the other lie is the provisional. You could say, grammatically, that until the appeal is decided both are provisional. Also, consider that the player *may* choose not to throw from the closer lie.

However, because the call is a misplay, we have an odd situation that needs to be covered. A misplay is only a one throw penalty if the player immediately goes back and throws from the correct lie; however, if the player makes subsequent throws after the misplay, it's a two throw penalty.
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  #33  
Old 08-06-2021, 06:28 PM
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teemkey teemkey is offline
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I wonder, if the player refused to play from the closer lie, could the player make the argument that it's not a misplay, rather it's whether the lie is either relief from the harmful insects or optional relief, not a misplay (even though his playing partners called misplay)? In other words, would declaring the farther lie "the nearest point" providing relief be equivalent to declaring optional relief if the other players in the group disagree?

Quote:
802.02.A
A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief.
Quote:
803.02.D
A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.
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  #34  
Old 08-06-2021, 10:38 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
It's a disagreement on the correct lie, and the player played from what he considers the correct lie. So, from the player's POV, the other lie is the provisional. You could say, grammatically, that until the appeal is decided both are provisional. Also, consider that the player *may* choose not to throw from the closer lie.

However, because the call is a misplay, we have an odd situation that needs to be covered. A misplay is only a one throw penalty if the player immediately goes back and throws from the correct lie; however, if the player makes subsequent throws after the misplay, it's a two throw penalty.
Yes, it is a disagreement on the correct lie....but if the majority of the card says the correct lie is the closer spot and the player disagrees and wants to appeal....the majority decision - at that moment - would make the closer lie the correct lie and the spot further away would be - at that moment - the wrong spot and therefore the provisional. At least that's how I would view it.

And this is a weird situation....what is the TD supposed to do on the appeal? If they go to the spot where the issue happened...the ant situation may not be the same as when the lie occurred. What happens if a TD can't make a ruling because they can't tell what the situation was at the time it occurred? Can a TD say....I don't have enough information to make a ruling, so you need to go by the majority decision?
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  #35  
Old 08-07-2021, 08:46 AM
Rastnav Rastnav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
Yes, it is a disagreement on the correct lie....but if the majority of the card says the correct lie is the closer spot and the player disagrees and wants to appeal....the majority decision - at that moment - would make the closer lie the correct lie and the spot further away would be - at that moment - the wrong spot and therefore the provisional. At least that's how I would view it.

And this is a weird situation....what is the TD supposed to do on the appeal? If they go to the spot where the issue happened...the ant situation may not be the same as when the lie occurred. What happens if a TD can't make a ruling because they can't tell what the situation was at the time it occurred? Can a TD say....I don't have enough information to make a ruling, so you need to go by the majority decision?
It’s not a “weird situation”, it’s just like any other card ruling where the specific conditions are not available to the TD. For example, whether a disc was in OB water may not, likely will not, be assessable after the fact, as it frequently depends on a very specific set of facts. If the TD isn’t right there to see a disc in real time, they are going to be reduced to resolving how the rules apply to an agreed upon set of facts.

For instance if the card disagreed with the player on whether the player got relief from the ants crawling on or around his disc, or would only get relief from a lie actually on the ant mound, that would be an agreed set of facts (where the ants were, where the disc was, are both agreed facts). The TD would be able to. (correctly, IMO) state that the player is given relief from the insects themselves, not the mound).

In a situation where the card disagree with them about whether/where they were entitled to relief, the player is in a unique situation that their options are to either play from an unsafe lie, or risk a two stroke penalty. A provisional play doesn’t afford them protection from playing from an unsafe lie. That is unfortunate, but if, personally, I genuinely consider the lie unsafe, I’m happy to risk a 2 stroke penalty for a ruling that I believe will be in my favor. If the TD rules against me, that may not be perfectly just, but perfectly just isn’t a standard any set of rules can meet.
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  #36  
Old 08-09-2021, 04:18 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
It’s not a “weird situation”, it’s just like any other card ruling where the specific conditions are not available to the TD. For example, whether a disc was in OB water may not, likely will not, be assessable after the fact, as it frequently depends on a very specific set of facts. If the TD isn’t right there to see a disc in real time, they are going to be reduced to resolving how the rules apply to an agreed upon set of facts.

For instance if the card disagreed with the player on whether the player got relief from the ants crawling on or around his disc, or would only get relief from a lie actually on the ant mound, that would be an agreed set of facts (where the ants were, where the disc was, are both agreed facts). The TD would be able to. (correctly, IMO) state that the player is given relief from the insects themselves, not the mound).

In a situation where the card disagree with them about whether/where they were entitled to relief, the player is in a unique situation that their options are to either play from an unsafe lie, or risk a two stroke penalty. A provisional play doesn’t afford them protection from playing from an unsafe lie. That is unfortunate, but if, personally, I genuinely consider the lie unsafe, I’m happy to risk a 2 stroke penalty for a ruling that I believe will be in my favor. If the TD rules against me, that may not be perfectly just, but perfectly just isn’t a standard any set of rules can meet.
Exactly that for me. I am not going to risk my health over a one-stroke or two-stroke penalty. I don't always get on these forums why some people go ballistic over it. If I don't want to be that close to those ants (maybe I'm highly allergic) and you think I should take a penalty in order to do so, fine. I'll risk asking for an appeal and the TD giving me those strokes before I'll risk my health. Simple.

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