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Old 10-09-2020, 03:56 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Default Non-vertical mando object

Has the blue disc in the picture missed the mando? Same question just phrased differently - which line does one use, A or B?

I'm asking this because missing a mando is defined as crossing the mando line, and the mando line is defined as starting from the centre of the mando object and running along the playing surface. And in my picture the blue disc hasn't crossed the mando line as such.
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:06 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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One issue with the picture; you don't show the flight of the disc.

However, you have to understand what the mando is. The tree is the mando, not the line. If the disc flew to the left of the tree and landed in that spot, it missed the mando. If it flew to the right of the tree and landed there, it made the mando.

The mando line is mainly used when a disc has landed perpendicular to the mando and isn't clearly past it or short of it....the mando line allows the players to determine if the disc has landed short of the mando or past the mando.
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Old 10-09-2020, 05:16 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post
However, you have to understand what the mando is. The tree is the mando, not the line...
This is why I've asked the question because 'missing the mando' is defined relative to the Mando Line not relative to the Mando Object (tree).

Quote:
B. A throw has missed a mandatory if, from the direction of the*previous lie, it completely crosses a mandatory line and comes to rest without coming back across the line (a throw or sequence of throws that crosses the line in both directions is considered not to have crossed the line).
I think maybe in previous rules it was defined relative to the Mando object, but not now, so I want to know how non-vertical Mando objects are handled.





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Old 10-09-2020, 05:39 PM
Sethamphetamine Sethamphetamine is offline
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Good question, have run into this myself. If the disc goes through the leafy branchy part, where do you define the mando? Center mass? I remember Simon throwing over the top of a mando tree and having a discussion about making or missing it if it goes over the top.
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Old 10-09-2020, 06:01 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
This is why I've asked the question because 'missing the mando' is defined relative to the Mando Line not relative to the Mando Object (tree).

I think maybe in previous rules it was defined relative to the Mando object, but not now, so I want to know how non-vertical Mando objects are handled.

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804.01 Mandatory Routes and Objects:
A mandatory route restricts the path the disc may take to the target. It is defined by one or more mandatory objects. Each mandatory object indicates whether the mandatory route passes to the left, right, below, or above it. The most common mandatories are: a single mandatory, which defines a mandatory route to the right or left; a double mandatory, which defines a mandatory route between two single mandatories; and a height-restricted double mandatory, which adds an upper boundary to a double mandatory.

So, in your example, the Mandatory object is the tree. The Mandatory route is to the right of the tree.

The purpose of a mando line is to identify if the disc is short of the mando, on the mando, or past the mando.

804.02 Prohibited Routes
A mandatory line is a line on the playing surface marked by the Director to indicate when a disc has missed a mandatory.

But the mandatory is still the object (tree in this case).

First question to ask....did the disc pass to the right (made the mando) or left (missed the mando)? In this case, the disc either passed to the left of the tree and missed the mando or it passed to right of the tree (under the angled trunk is still to the right of the tree) and made the mando.

Second question to ask, if the disc passed to the left side...did it end up short of the mando line, on the mando line, or past the mando line? For the first two, the mando has not been missed and the player can still throw around the mando with no penalty. In the last option, the player missed the mando and has to take the penalty.

In the picture, it isn't defined as to the path the disc took. But if it did pass to the left of the tree, then it missed the mando (left of the tree); the mando line doesn't matter as the disc has gone well past the mando line.

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Old 10-09-2020, 06:04 PM
BillFleming BillFleming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethamphetamine View Post
Good question, have run into this myself. If the disc goes through the leafy branchy part, where do you define the mando? Center mass? I remember Simon throwing over the top of a mando tree and having a discussion about making or missing it if it goes over the top.
This is a different case. The mando extends up to infinity on a line through the middle of the mando. When a disc is thrown over the top of a mando, it can be very subjective as to which side of the middle of the mando the disc passed over.

It can be subjective due to each observer's position/sight line. From Simon's point of view, his disc may have passed over the tree on the proper side of the mando....but from another player's point of view, the disc may have passed over the wrong side of the mando.
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Old 10-09-2020, 06:46 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFleming View Post

..

First question to ask....did the disc pass to the right (made the mando) or left (missed the mando)?
Yes Bill, the Mando rules talk about passing to the left and right of the Mando object but... and this is the critical bit... the actual penalty is assigned by whether the disc crosses the Mando line. The penalty is NOT defined in (direct) relation to the Mando object. I will quote the relevant rule again for emphasis.

Quote:
B. A throw has missed a mandatory if, from the direction of the previous lie, it completely crosses a mandatory line and comes to rest without coming back across the line...*
804.01 is descriptive but does not actual define the penalty. It is 804.02.B that I've quoted above that actual tells us what constitutes missing the Mando. So I think that the Mando object's only part is as the starting point of the Mando line.

Asking whether the disc passed to the left or the right of the Mando object is irrelevant to the wording of 804.02.B


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Old 10-09-2020, 10:23 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Yes Bill, the Mando rules talk about passing to the left and right of the Mando object but... and this is the critical bit... the actual penalty is assigned by whether the disc crosses the Mando line. The penalty is NOT defined in (direct) relation to the Mando object. I will quote the relevant rule again for emphasis.



804.01 is descriptive but does not actual define the penalty. It is 804.02.B that I've quoted above that actual tells us what constitutes missing the Mando. So I think that the Mando object's only part is as the starting point of the Mando line.

Asking whether the disc passed to the left or the right of the Mando object is irrelevant to the wording of 804.02.B
My problem with this interpretation is that you cannot determine if an object has crossed a 1-d line inside 3-d space. It can go over the line, around the line, or under the line and still end up on the other side of the line. From a physics/mathematical perspective, you need to define a 2-d plane for the object to penetrate through. The mando line defines the bottom of the plane, but what defines the left/right edge of the plane? It's absolute not specified in 804.02.B. Since it's not specified, you have to invent something. You can either say the side of the mando plane is defined by the mando object (which is detailed in 804.01), or you can say the side of the mando plane is defined by an imaginary vertical line starting at the beginning of the mando line (which is not detailed anywhere). If you have to make something up, why wouldn't you use the previous paragraph as guidance instead of making something up out of thin air?
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Old 10-09-2020, 11:21 PM
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teemkey teemkey is online now
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Let's clarify the mando line

Quote:
804.02.A2
If no line has been marked for a single mandatory, it is defined as a straight line extending indefinitely from the center of the mandatory object on the incorrect side, perpendicular to the line connecting the mandatory object to the previous mandatory object, or if there is no previous mandatory, the tee.
So in the OP's illustration, the mando line is on the playing surface to the right side of the tree (aka the incorrect side) and is used to determine whether the disc has passed the mando. Whereas the mando object is the tree itself, which is used to determine whether the disc took the proper path when passing the mando object.

The real question is what happens above the mando object (Simon question). Does the correct side of the mando extend above the mando object at 90 degrees, or the angle established by the object itself.
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Old 10-10-2020, 02:27 AM
txmxer txmxer is online now
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This is new to me, but seems to conflate mando with OB as I read the various rules quoted.

To me the logic of a single mando is a vertical line from earth to infinity which I must pass on a particular side. The start point—as long as the disc isn’t closer to the pin is irrelevant nor is the finish point. It’s not OB. It’s on object I’ll supposed to pass on a particular side.

Throwing above the object does create more subjectivity but doesn’t particularly alter the concept.

My opinion. Struggling to understand the written words of the rule.
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