#511  
Old 10-23-2020, 06:48 PM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
Captain Oblivous!
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 807
Niced 56 Times in 46 Posts
Default



Watch very carefully for the moment right after his heel fully comes down and the foot slides forward slightly signifying brace/weight shift. At that moment his hips have already substantially rotated forward. It's also the precise moment when there is maximum separation between the hips and shoulders. I'm not making this stuff up, it's reality- what actually happens.
Sponsored Links

Last edited by RoDeO; 10-23-2020 at 06:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #512  
Old 10-23-2020, 07:48 PM
SaROCaM SaROCaM is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Courses Played: 38
Posts: 906
Niced 782 Times in 368 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post


Watch very carefully for the moment right after his heel fully comes down and the foot slides forward slightly signifying brace/weight shift. At that moment his hips have already substantially rotated forward. It's also the precise moment when there is maximum separation between the hips and shoulders. I'm not making this stuff up, it's reality- what actually happens.
It seems you are making up your own reality. First you expanded brace into "strong brace" and now further expanded into brace+strong brace+foot sliding.

Are you saying is that there is a "significant lag" between toe down, heel down, and brace? If there is that much lag, maybe you are going too slowly. It is supposed to be a dynamic, athletic movement.

You can make as many GIFs as you want; until the GIF maker has demonstrated they actually know what is happening, the GIFs they make are questionable, especially when all it really amounts to is a competing account of what they "see."

Which of these carries more weight:

A. Your perception of what is happening, which goes against what experienced and knowledgeable people are saying
B. What biomechanics researchers and experts are saying, backed by data, studies, physical diagrams

Until you present evidence that amounts to more than "this is what I see and feel" it is difficult to be convinced that you know better than the established posters on the board who have demonstrated knowledge and/or success.

Another layer in the discussion is defining what is optimal. When you only focus on what people do, you are bound to observe some suboptimal things simply because people/situations are not perfect. Suboptimal doesn't necessarily mean bad, it means that there is some room for improvement.

I suppose what I want to see is evidence of what is optimal, explanations of how/why things deviate from the ideal, and an evaluation of how much those things matter.

Niced: (1)

Last edited by SaROCaM; 10-23-2020 at 07:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #513  
Old 10-24-2020, 02:39 AM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
Captain Oblivous!
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 807
Niced 56 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaROCaM View Post
It seems you are making up your own reality. First you expanded brace into "strong brace" and now further expanded into brace+strong brace+foot sliding.

Are you saying is that there is a "significant lag" between toe down, heel down, and brace? If there is that much lag, maybe you are going too slowly. It is supposed to be a dynamic, athletic movement.

You can make as many GIFs as you want; until the GIF maker has demonstrated they actually know what is happening, the GIFs they make are questionable, especially when all it really amounts to is a competing account of what they "see."

Which of these carries more weight:

A. Your perception of what is happening, which goes against what experienced and knowledgeable people are saying
B. What biomechanics researchers and experts are saying, backed by data, studies, physical diagrams

Until you present evidence that amounts to more than "this is what I see and feel" it is difficult to be convinced that you know better than the established posters on the board who have demonstrated knowledge and/or success.

Another layer in the discussion is defining what is optimal. When you only focus on what people do, you are bound to observe some suboptimal things simply because people/situations are not perfect. Suboptimal doesn't necessarily mean bad, it means that there is some room for improvement.

I suppose what I want to see is evidence of what is optimal, explanations of how/why things deviate from the ideal, and an evaluation of how much those things matter.
The reason I emphasize the "strong bracing" is because there is a lot of misconception on when the brace occurs. I've seen too many cases of this in baseball and now with disc golf. Instructors will pause video at the moment of first contact with the lead foot and associate it with the brace moment when it really isn't. Until the lead foot makes substantial contact and there is a definite pressure felt there can't be a brace. The brace m7st be "strong" or firm if it is goung to positively affect what you are doing. If that brace slips or isn't firm/strong you can in our yourself or the disc eont go far or go offline, etc. I injured my groin on a throw once because the tee pad was wet and I slipped. The disc also didn't go very far because no strong brace was present. Slipping at that moment isn't good because that is the moment where you begin to apply acceleration and power. I brought up the "sliding" part on his brace just to bring up the sign that his foot was bracing at that point.

There's a lot happening between when the lead foot just starts to make contact up until the actual brace. The hips rotate about 30 degrees during that time.

As for what people say is happening vs. what is actually happening are often two separate things. A person can say lots of different things about what they think happens. The video evidence doesn't lie- it actually shows what really happens. It's why I take a lot of what instructors say without much weight until it can be coupled with video evidence to show they both line up. You could have 10 separate instructors all preaching the same thing and have all 10 instructors be wrong. It's why video is the bottom line- it just doesn't lie. You could have all 10 instructors teaching the hips have no rotation until brace and video evidence clearly shows the hips do in fact rotate before brace. I think a lot of it has to do with defing the brace moment. For example- if you stand ferr shoulder length apart and rock side to side you can feel the weight shift from one foot to the other. But even though both feet are on the ground doesn't mean there is weight on one or both. There is a lag time of sorts when you rock back and forth to where you actually feel the weight shift. If you do it fast enough you can feel it kind of float between the two in the middle. It's precisely this fact that there is this lag time between when the foot first makes contact until there is an actual brace that can offer anything power wise to the throw.

Defining what is optimal is debatable from one person to the next. Each throw a little differently and feel different things when they throw which they personally believe are optimal and important. But what is important for one may be of little to no importance to another because they throw different. Tristan Tanner's super slow x step is obviously important to him but completely opposite to Paige Pierce who believes you have to have a fast lateral shift. They both can bomb discs so it's not like how fast or slow one moves is truly optimal across the board. Each player has to find what works for them and what they develop ends up being optimal for them but may not translate into optimal for another. Each player is going to feel and experience different things in their throw that most likely will be different to some degree or another with what other players feel and experience. The problems arise when a player becomes convinced of what they feel and preach others must do such and such but yet what is really happening is actually different. Our minds have a way of blurring the details and timing and so we come to believe we are doing something when we actually aren't.

All I know is that I must be thinking optimally for at least myself because 300+ foot shots are becoming almost too simple now after just 4 months since I started. I walk almost in slow motion and just do a little reachback and then with a little twitch of the hips right before brace it sets off a smooth effortless delivery that expells the disc perfectly flat without any wobble and it just shoots out there so fast and easy, perhaps too easy. Now I am learning how to just add more power and keep the timing and smoothness correct. Optimal for me right now is slow and smooth. For more distance all I do is speed up the last half of my x step which for me triggers more responsiveness by the hip twitch which triggers a more powerful turn.

There can be lots of variables in a player's throw but what matters the most for me with others is understanding that the weight transition and hip rotation are both dynamic smooth events that happen together. It's just absolutely not true that you want to delay all hip rotation until "brace". All that will do is promote strongarming the disc. The only real delay is keeping the shoulders turned facing rearward until maximum hip to shoulder separation which means the hips have turned forwards to some degree before the shoulders also turn. It's just not possible to wait until the brace moment to begin to turn the hips because that is the moment when the shoulders also must start to turn and there won't be adequate hip to shoulder rotation to power the pull through with the body. Randy proved this with his one leg throw that it is impossible to initiate hip rotation before the shoulders while balanced solely on the front leg. The best he could do is to rotate them almost simultaneously which means it is an all arm throw.

One of my own drills I do is to stand rearward and reach my hand back like I'm holding the disc and then start with my weight on my rear leg and transition the weight to my lead leg all the while pulling the arm entirely with the torque of the hips and torso. There is such a fine line between pulling the disc with your body vs pulling it with your arm even if one is leading with the hip in rotation. There's a lot of hybrid throws I see on the form forums where they are engaging their hips but they are also heavily engaging their arm too and the person is putting forth what appears to he a lot of effort and they aren't getting the disc out very far. I honestly believe most new players develop this hybrid throw and it is what keeps them from breaking into the 350+ and beyond mark.
Reply With Quote
  #514  
Old 10-24-2020, 03:27 AM
RandyC RandyC is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 345
Niced 232 Times in 134 Posts
Default

Shoulders and hip rotating simultaneously frame by frame. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

Wish you understood the human anatomy just a tad better so you wouldnt make these impossible arguments which require an alien anatomy. You must understand how frustrating it is to debate with you when you ignore facts.
Reply With Quote
  #515  
Old 10-24-2020, 04:02 AM
discerdoo's Avatar
discerdoo discerdoo is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Years Playing: 4.4
Courses Played: 17
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,753
Niced 1,530 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
The reason I emphasize the "strong bracing" is because there is a lot of misconception on when the brace occurs. I've seen too many cases of this in baseball and now with disc golf. Instructors will pause video at the moment of first contact with the lead foot and associate it with the brace moment when it really isn't. Until the lead foot makes substantial contact and there is a definite pressure felt there can't be a brace. The brace m7st be "strong" or firm if it is goung to positively affect what you are doing. If that brace slips or isn't firm/strong you can in our yourself or the disc eont go far or go offline, etc. I injured my groin on a throw once because the tee pad was wet and I slipped. The disc also didn't go very far because no strong brace was present. Slipping at that moment isn't good because that is the moment where you begin to apply acceleration and power. I brought up the "sliding" part on his brace just to bring up the sign that his foot was bracing at that point.

There's a lot happening between when the lead foot just starts to make contact up until the actual brace. The hips rotate about 30 degrees during that time.

As for what people say is happening vs. what is actually happening are often two separate things. A person can say lots of different things about what they think happens. The video evidence doesn't lie- it actually shows what really happens. It's why I take a lot of what instructors say without much weight until it can be coupled with video evidence to show they both line up. You could have 10 separate instructors all preaching the same thing and have all 10 instructors be wrong. It's why video is the bottom line- it just doesn't lie. You could have all 10 instructors teaching the hips have no rotation until brace and video evidence clearly shows the hips do in fact rotate before brace. I think a lot of it has to do with defing the brace moment. For example- if you stand ferr shoulder length apart and rock side to side you can feel the weight shift from one foot to the other. But even though both feet are on the ground doesn't mean there is weight on one or both. There is a lag time of sorts when you rock back and forth to where you actually feel the weight shift. If you do it fast enough you can feel it kind of float between the two in the middle. It's precisely this fact that there is this lag time between when the foot first makes contact until there is an actual brace that can offer anything power wise to the throw.

Defining what is optimal is debatable from one person to the next. Each throw a little differently and feel different things when they throw which they personally believe are optimal and important. But what is important for one may be of little to no importance to another because they throw different. Tristan Tanner's super slow x step is obviously important to him but completely opposite to Paige Pierce who believes you have to have a fast lateral shift. They both can bomb discs so it's not like how fast or slow one moves is truly optimal across the board. Each player has to find what works for them and what they develop ends up being optimal for them but may not translate into optimal for another. Each player is going to feel and experience different things in their throw that most likely will be different to some degree or another with what other players feel and experience. The problems arise when a player becomes convinced of what they feel and preach others must do such and such but yet what is really happening is actually different. Our minds have a way of blurring the details and timing and so we come to believe we are doing something when we actually aren't.

All I know is that I must be thinking optimally for at least myself because 300+ foot shots are becoming almost too simple now after just 4 months since I started. I walk almost in slow motion and just do a little reachback and then with a little twitch of the hips right before brace it sets off a smooth effortless delivery that expells the disc perfectly flat without any wobble and it just shoots out there so fast and easy, perhaps too easy. Now I am learning how to just add more power and keep the timing and smoothness correct. Optimal for me right now is slow and smooth. For more distance all I do is speed up the last half of my x step which for me triggers more responsiveness by the hip twitch which triggers a more powerful turn.

There can be lots of variables in a player's throw but what matters the most for me with others is understanding that the weight transition and hip rotation are both dynamic smooth events that happen together. It's just absolutely not true that you want to delay all hip rotation until "brace". All that will do is promote strongarming the disc. The only real delay is keeping the shoulders turned facing rearward until maximum hip to shoulder separation which means the hips have turned forwards to some degree before the shoulders also turn. It's just not possible to wait until the brace moment to begin to turn the hips because that is the moment when the shoulders also must start to turn and there won't be adequate hip to shoulder rotation to power the pull through with the body. Randy proved this with his one leg throw that it is impossible to initiate hip rotation before the shoulders while balanced solely on the front leg. The best he could do is to rotate them almost simultaneously which means it is an all arm throw.

One of my own drills I do is to stand rearward and reach my hand back like I'm holding the disc and then start with my weight on my rear leg and transition the weight to my lead leg all the while pulling the arm entirely with the torque of the hips and torso. There is such a fine line between pulling the disc with your body vs pulling it with your arm even if one is leading with the hip in rotation. There's a lot of hybrid throws I see on the form forums where they are engaging their hips but they are also heavily engaging their arm too and the person is putting forth what appears to he a lot of effort and they aren't getting the disc out very far. I honestly believe most new players develop this hybrid throw and it is what keeps them from breaking into the 350+ and beyond mark.
That's quite a manifesto. It seems to be a matter of life and death that you somehow convince someone that there may be a miniscule "twitch of the hips" a nanosecond before "strong brace".

Why?

You probably could have developed a cure for covid with the time and energy you've spent on this thread. Obsessive much?

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #516  
Old 10-24-2020, 06:37 AM
SaROCaM SaROCaM is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Courses Played: 38
Posts: 906
Niced 782 Times in 368 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
The reason I emphasize the "strong bracing" is because there is a lot of misconception on when the brace occurs.
You say this, but you were the one who said that Kevin Jones slipping while throwing a 530' ace shows that he didn't brace enough to contribute to the throw:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
And as I remember he aced that hole on that shot. His brace didn't do it's main job of keepung him from crashing out. Even though his brace gave out he still got hip rotation and distance. Interesting.
In that analysis, you were extending the brace to a point after the disc had been released, when the relevant portion had already been completed. (Which is why he was able to throw the disc 530 feet.) This makes it more likely that when you are watching and commenting on video, you are mis-identifying the brace as taking place past the relevant point.

It is because of statements like this (among several others) that it is difficult to believe you are correctly identifying the brace moment when you point it out in a video.

Also, for someone who relies so much on video evidence, you seem to ignore all the video that shows athletes executing a brace without a foot making complete flat contact with the playing surface. If athletes can brace a great deal of momentum in this way, then why do you say that a foot has to make complete flat contact with the ground in order to brace?

Could it be that when the foot is completely flat on the ground, the relevant bracing event has already taken place and what you are pointing out is a post-brace event or transition point?

Last edited by SaROCaM; 10-24-2020 at 06:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #517  
Old 10-24-2020, 10:49 AM
RoDeO RoDeO is offline
Captain Oblivous!
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 807
Niced 56 Times in 46 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaROCaM View Post
You say this, but you were the one who said that Kevin Jones slipping while throwing a 530' ace shows that he didn't brace enough to contribute to the throw:



In that analysis, you were extending the brace to a point after the disc had been released, when the relevant portion had already been completed. (Which is why he was able to throw the disc 530 feet.) This makes it more likely that when you are watching and commenting on video, you are mis-identifying the brace as taking place past the relevant point.

It is because of statements like this (among several others) that it is difficult to believe you are correctly identifying the brace moment when you point it out in a video.

Also, for someone who relies so much on video evidence, you seem to ignore all the video that shows athletes executing a brace without a foot making complete flat contact with the playing surface. If athletes can brace a great deal of momentum in this way, then why do you say that a foot has to make complete flat contact with the ground in order to brace?

Could it be that when the foot is completely flat on the ground, the relevant bracing event has already taken place and what you are pointing out is a post-brace event or transition point?
In general, most people brace with the whole foot down. There are some instances where the brace is more floaty. In those cases it actually bolsters my position that hip rotation initiation happens before brace. Sidewinder emphasizes this crush the can moment as there being a solid heel down pressure brace moment. Almost exclusively though, hip rotation begins before even the ball of the lead foot plants.

It's almost like you are seeing what I am showing and trying to adjust the goalposts to make the brace happen before it actually happens. Take my baseball swing GIF for example- his hips are clearly rotating before his toe even makes solid contact. You can't think his toe is the brace can you?

Last edited by RoDeO; 10-24-2020 at 10:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #518  
Old 10-24-2020, 11:28 AM
RowingBoats's Avatar
RowingBoats RowingBoats is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 168
Niced 108 Times in 58 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDeO View Post
In general, most people brace with the whole foot down. There are some instances where the brace is more floaty. In those cases it actually bolsters my position that hip rotation initiation happens before brace. Sidewinder emphasizes this crush the can moment as there being a solid heel down pressure brace moment. Almost exclusively though, hip rotation begins before even the ball of the lead foot plants.

It's almost like you are seeing what I am showing and trying to adjust the goalposts to make the brace happen before it actually happens. Take my baseball swing GIF for example- his hips are clearly rotating before his toe even makes solid contact. You can't think his toe is the brace can you?
To me, there is no specific moment of bracing. I quite literally feel a wave of momentum that I am manipulating, and it is most assuredly a lateral movement to initiate the shift from rear to front foot.
Reply With Quote
  #519  
Old 10-24-2020, 12:16 PM
timothy42b timothy42b is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Virginia
Courses Played: 1
Posts: 215
Niced 23 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyC View Post
Shoulders and hip rotating simultaneously frame by frame. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=15

Wish you understood the human anatomy just a tad better so you wouldnt make these impossible arguments which require an alien anatomy. You must understand how frustrating it is to debate with you when you ignore facts.
Hmmm. That's sure what Paul looks like. But don't ball golfers deliberately move the hips before the shoulders rotate? They get more power that way, and also more back injuries. But if you look at Tiger when he's really bombing them his hips snap through well before the shoulders. Compare that to those shots more recently when his back was in trouble and they were rotating simultaneously, and he flipping them into sand traps and struggling.

Stokely talks about wanting hips forward and shoulders back on that recent sidearm video, not rotating simultaneous. So there may be more than one right way to do this.
Reply With Quote
 

  #520  
Old 10-24-2020, 12:54 PM
RandyC RandyC is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 345
Niced 232 Times in 134 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timothy42b View Post
Hmmm. That's sure what Paul looks like. But don't ball golfers deliberately move the hips before the shoulders rotate? They get more power that way, and also more back injuries. But if you look at Tiger when he's really bombing them his hips snap through well before the shoulders. Compare that to those shots more recently when his back was in trouble and they were rotating simultaneously, and he flipping them into sand traps and struggling.

Stokely talks about wanting hips forward and shoulders back on that recent sidearm video, not rotating simultaneous. So there may be more than one right way to do this.
It is just an illusion. Two handed your stance is bit more open and after a good weight shift shoulders will naturally lag due to the nature of the swing as you are holding the club with your rear arm.

There are probably better videos but this was the first one I found, backhanded 1-arm golf-swing. https://youtu.be/6GY3pS5qU2w?t=53
No noticeable lag in the shoulders.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Hips sidewinder22 Technique & Strategy 55 11-30-2020 05:14 PM
Weak hips? tisjja Technique & Strategy 5 12-17-2019 11:36 AM
I think my hips need help! steveo69 Form Analysis/Critique 2 10-22-2016 02:26 PM
The hips... I must use them. HyzerUniBomber Technique & Strategy 14 08-04-2014 12:23 AM
Twitch's Bag (Help Needed!) twitchlove Bag Suggestions & Feedback 29 12-10-2011 09:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.