#631  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:28 PM
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Jouni Jouni is offline
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edit: nevermind, misread.
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Last edited by Jouni; 10-11-2018 at 05:30 PM. Reason: misread
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  #632  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:53 PM
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mad4disc mad4disc is offline
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Climo's never been to VT? Au contraire. He played in my 2007 Sugarbush Open (didn't win) and I have the pix to prove it. Jus saying .... We've seen the Champ here in the friendly Green Mtn state.
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  #633  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:00 PM
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DiscJunkie DiscJunkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Actually, the lay-up (to the in-bounds area in front of the tee) would not be worth the risk (unless the player can't throw far enough to make the island), whether the risk is one, two, or three extra throws. It's a pretty small area which doesn't gain you much and can result in a OB off the front or side.

The play would still be to make sure to land on the island. The point is, that play - as you point out - is already more rare than it rationally should be. If players are irrational, why won't they stay irrational no matter what the penalty?

At the risk of seeing it come true, under the rules they could make the player go to a drop zone that is less favorable than the tee to make the cost of a miss go up from the current two to a likely three.
Steve,
I disagree that the lay-up area in front of the tee doesn't gain you much.
While it is true that they reduced the size and distance of the lay-up area, it still has several advantages:
First, it's about 60 feet from the tee to the flat area just inside the ropes. Easy distance to pitch a putt for placement.
Second, it allows an unobstructed line to the green. No trees or bushes.
Third, for a LHBH or RHFH it opens up the target area lengthwise.
Fourth, the skip for a LHBH or RHFH will go to the hay bales instead of water.
Fifth, for a LHBH or RHFH it allows a steep angle of attack to minimize skipping and increase accuracy.
Last, for a OH thrower like me, it opens up the path vertically and makes an easy approach into the hay bales.

I will admit that there's not a whole lot of gained advantage for a RHBH. The lay up area used to extend 90'+ from the tee. Back then it was more advantageous for a RHBH. Dave Feldberg used it for years.

I played Winthrop Gold 20 over and 30 over the last two years at Spectator Day, so it's fair to say I suck. However, using the lay-up area, I have played Hole 17 Par and Bogey, leaving my card mates second-guessing their more "heroic" decisions.

I would venture to say most of the field would benefit from swallowing their pride and laying up on Hole 17.


Last edited by DiscJunkie; 10-11-2018 at 10:04 PM.
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  #634  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:22 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscJunkie View Post
Steve,
I disagree that the lay-up area in front of the tee doesn't gain you much.
While it is true that they reduced the size and distance of the lay-up area, it still has several advantages:
First, it's about 60 feet from the tee to the flat area just inside the ropes. Easy distance to pitch a putt for placement.
Second, it allows an unobstructed line to the green. No trees or bushes.
Third, for a LHBH or RHFH it opens up the target area lengthwise.
Fourth, the skip for a LHBH or RHFH will go to the hay bales instead of water.
Fifth, for a LHBH or RHFH it allows a steep angle of attack to minimize skipping and increase accuracy.
Last, for a OH thrower like me, it opens up the path vertically and makes an easy approach into the hay bales.

I will admit that there's not a whole lot of gained advantage for a RHBH. The lay up area used to extend 90'+ from the tee. Back then it was more advantageous for a RHBH. Dave Feldberg used it for years.

I played Winthrop Gold 20 over and 30 over the last two years at Spectator Day, so it's fair to say I suck. However, using the lay-up area, I have played Hole 17 Par and Bogey, leaving my card mates second-guessing their more "heroic" decisions.

I would venture to say most of the field would benefit from swallowing their pride and laying up on Hole 17.
I agree the lay-up area has all those advantages. Even so, the chance of going OB, times the double penalty from going OB, just about exactly offsets those advantages.

Landing on the island has more advantages. And, the landing area is much bigger.

For those who can reach the island, going for the maximum chance of landing anywhere on the island is the smarter play than laying up. So, another reason the layup is not worth it is because there is a better alternative.
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  #635  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:03 AM
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DiscJunkie DiscJunkie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
I agree the lay-up area has all those advantages. Even so, the chance of going OB, times the double penalty from going OB, just about exactly offsets those advantages.

Landing on the island has more advantages. And, the landing area is much bigger.

For those who can reach the island, going for the maximum chance of landing anywhere on the island is the smarter play than laying up. So, another reason the layup is not worth it is because there is a better alternative.
With all due respect, and I respect most of your opinions very much...
Let's just agree to disagree, 'cause I disagree with just about everything you've said in the above post.
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  #636  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:35 AM
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pmay5 pmay5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscJunkie View Post

I played Winthrop Gold 20 over and 30 over the last two years at Spectator Day, so it's fair to say I suck. However, using the lay-up area, I have played Hole 17 Par and Bogey, leaving my card mates second-guessing their more "heroic" decisions.

.
Wait ... there's a "Spectator Day"? A chance to play the Gold course with the ropes up? Is that before the Pros hit the course or on the Sunday after? Did they have that this year?
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  #637  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:54 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscJunkie View Post
With all due respect, and I respect most of your opinions very much...
Let's just agree to disagree, 'cause I disagree with just about everything you've said in the above post.
I'm OK with that. Disc golf is more interesting when there isn't a clear-cut best way to play the hole. Even if we got 100 players out there to test-play it three ways, any of the three might come out ahead. It's like it was designed for that to be the case.

I was just trying to give a reason why the lay-up is not as common as it seems it should be.

For the record, I personally would go Nova lay-up every time. I played the hole enough to realize I don't have the skills the course is designed to test.
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  #638  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:55 AM
bhadella bhadella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmay5 View Post
Wait ... there's a "Spectator Day"? A chance to play the Gold course with the ropes up? Is that before the Pros hit the course or on the Sunday after? Did they have that this year?
Yes, Spectator Day is the Sunday after USDGC where you can signup to play the course in full "USDGC setup".
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  #639  
Old 10-12-2018, 12:39 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmay5 View Post
Wait ... there's a "Spectator Day"? A chance to play the Gold course with the ropes up? Is that before the Pros hit the course or on the Sunday after? Did they have that this year?
Sunday after. They've done it for years. In fact, I believe it is one of the big reasons the tournament runs Wednesday to Saturday. Originally it was a Thursday to Sunday affair. When it moved to Wed-Sat, it was something no one had ever done before (except Worlds which has always ended on Saturday). Now a whole bunch of events do it so it doesn't seem so odd, but back then, it was somewhat controversial.
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  #640  
Old 10-12-2018, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscJunkie View Post
With all due respect, and I respect most of your opinions very much...
Let's just agree to disagree, 'cause I disagree with just about everything you've said in the above post.
The island is SO reachable, and tempting in that way.
For RHFH, there's really no reason to lay up. You won't open up many more options from the lay up zone.
OH or BH, I see how the shot gets easier after the lay up.

If I missed the island after the first tee shot, I might take my medicine and go for the lay up 5. Other than that, RUN IT!
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