Disc Golf Course Review Par Talk
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#1971
10-19-2017, 04:02 AM
 sidewinder22 * Ace Member * Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Creeping Creek DGC Years Playing: 11.3 Courses Played: 185 Posts: 11,832 Niced 625 Times in 464 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Steve West Pretty close, but not the same. Par doesn't care how many high scores the players get, but SSA does. A round played in unusually bad weather would not have a different par, but it would have a higher SSA It goes the other way, too, but not to the same degree or as often. If the weather is usually windy, a round played on a rare calm day could have a lower SSA, but par wouldn't change. Any source of unexpectedly low scores would not reduce par but would lower SSA. Also, SSA is applied to the total score of a round, while par is applied to each hole on a course.
^ This seems contradictory to what you wrote...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Steve West Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions, as determined by the Director.
What is Par? According to your definition above there are lots of Par 2's, but rarely is Par 2 actually ever assigned to a hole, however SSA of a hole can often be predicted beforehand and calculated afterword as a Par 2 on those holes. I assume that Par can only be whole numbers, because Par 2.5 and 3.6 or whatever wouldn't work very well, although the SSA could be 2.5, but I would expect this to be rounded up to a Par 3.

I said that Par as defined by you above is basically the definition of SSA because you include weather conditions. Course Par(CP) or Hole Par(HP) doesn't include weather conditions, nor does it change from one round to another, but apparently Tournament Par(TP) can change between rounds according to you. We shall call this TP instead of CP or HP.

To include weather in the TP calculation you would basically have to know the SSA of the hole or predict it, and if this tournament happens in Maine then the TP is almost always going to be at least one stroke lower than the designer assigned Par to better reflect SSA. I don't know the numbers, but I assume that SSA doesn't change much in good weather conditions and is practically negligible overall.

Last edited by sidewinder22; 10-19-2017 at 04:04 AM.
#1972
10-19-2017, 08:37 AM
 Therealgoat Newbie Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Maine Posts: 39 Niced 43 Times in 14 Posts

It doesn't say "good" weather conditions, but "ordinary". I take that to mean, "typical for this location". If you have 30mph winds 300 days a year, par can be set with those conditions in mind, not a perfectly calm day - which doesn't reflect the conditions you'd typically find if you picked a random day to play that course.

I don't think its implying to change par if the weather is bad or different from "ordinary", but that it should be set within the affects of the "ordinary" conditions.

Its saying "don't set par with hurricane weather patterns rolling through town", not "make sure you adjust par if the weather changes".

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#1973
10-25-2017, 02:19 AM
 Steve West * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2009 Years Playing: 43.5 Courses Played: 293 Posts: 3,408 Niced 460 Times in 254 Posts

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#1974
10-25-2017, 07:39 AM
 DavidSauls * Ace Member * Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newberry, SC Years Playing: 22.4 Courses Played: 124 Posts: 12,916 Niced 681 Times in 365 Posts

An unexpected sidebar story: A man was in our store yesterday from the little town of Barnwell, SC, a small town and rather remote, from larger population areas and certainly from heavier disc golf hubs. He said they have a little 9-hole course (which I wasn't even aware of), and he and his sons started playing about a year ago.

He described their scores relative to par, and said a few holes have signs saying Par 2.

I thought this enlightenment might start to top-tier events. But at a little small-town 9-holer?

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#1975
10-25-2017, 11:49 AM
 Steve West * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2009 Years Playing: 43.5 Courses Played: 293 Posts: 3,408 Niced 460 Times in 254 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DavidSauls An unexpected sidebar story: A man was in our store yesterday from the little town of Barnwell, SC, a small town and rather remote, from larger population areas and certainly from heavier disc golf hubs. He said they have a little 9-hole course (which I wasn't even aware of), and he and his sons started playing about a year ago. He described their scores relative to par, and said a few holes have signs saying Par 2. I thought this enlightenment might start to top-tier events. But at a little small-town 9-holer?

Must have got those signs in quick after the definition was changed.

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#1976
10-26-2017, 01:23 AM
 Steve West * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2009 Years Playing: 43.5 Courses Played: 293 Posts: 3,408 Niced 460 Times in 254 Posts

Hall of Fame Classic. If a player scored even tournament par of 200 (64+68+68), they would have been in 59th place and had an average round rating of about 933. I think par should have been 55 and 63, which would have been 23rd and won some money.

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#1977
10-26-2017, 09:05 AM
 Karl Eagle Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 690 Niced 19 Times in 14 Posts

Who cares about the "money" aspect here? Why do you keep trying to weave in together 'cashing' and par? That par here is probably 'wrong' I get, but leave 'cashing' out of WHOLE discussion.
#1978
10-26-2017, 10:16 AM
 Steve West * Ace Member * Join Date: Dec 2009 Years Playing: 43.5 Courses Played: 293 Posts: 3,408 Niced 460 Times in 254 Posts

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Karl Who cares about the "money" aspect here? Why do you keep trying to weave in together 'cashing' and par? That par here is probably 'wrong' I get, but leave 'cashing' out of WHOLE discussion.
Par here isn't wrong; it was set by the TD, that makes it right.

You can leave cash out of the discussion if you want - par certainly isn't defined by cash.

I just find it to be a nifty side effect that if par is set by any of the well-thought out methods discussed in this thread, the answer to "what's it going to take to cash?" is always "par is usually good." Also, that birdies move you toward more cash, and bogeys move you toward less cash. That seems to be an important way to use par for some people. So, it's got that going for it, which is nice.

In the same vein, par is not defined by what announcers say, but it's some sort of confirmation that they usually seem to comment on the holes where course par is lower than these methods.

Par is also not defined by how many under the winning score is, but if par were set by these methods, the winning score could be predicted relative to par as about 4 or 5 under per round for tournaments where the best players show up. (13 under in this case, vs. the 32 under that was reported).

#1979
10-26-2017, 01:16 PM
 Olorin * Ace Member * Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Fleetwood, NC Years Playing: 38.5 Courses Played: 387 Throwing Style: RHBH Posts: 2,099 Niced 94 Times in 57 Posts

Steve,

Thanks so much for your diligent efforts and continuing to fight the good fight for par! You are doing a great job and making a significant contribution. Even if you might sometimes feel like a voice calling out in the wilderness, there are many of us out here who are listening and applaud your effort! Keep pressing on.

Your bar charts are very persuasive (even though I don't entirely agree with some of your foundational premises. Sorry).

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