#251  
Old 05-25-2018, 03:37 PM
teemkey's Avatar
teemkey teemkey is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Courses Played: 39
Posts: 2,239
Niced 220 Times in 113 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keller View Post
^^^^
I have no idea what any of that means.
I think this is one of Steve's more informative charts.

On the x-axis (horizontal) is scoring spread; that is, a measure of different scores obtained on the hole.

On the y-axis (vertical) is the correlation of player rating to score on the hole. A negative correlation means higher rated players got lower scores (and vice-versa).

I'm not sure what the size of the circles indicates. (Steve?)

What it shows is how each hole affected the competition, separating the players' scores and where the better players rise to the top.

Frankly, I'd rather see round rating on the y-axis, because when lower rated players (eg Meintsma) perform exceptionally well, the chart loses some value.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 05-25-2018, 04:16 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 44.3
Courses Played: 320
Posts: 4,236
Niced 1,003 Times in 526 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teemkey View Post
I'm not sure what the size of the circles indicates. (Steve?)
On that chart, the size of the dots represents average score. (I subtract 2 to make the differences more apparent.)
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 05-25-2018, 04:37 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 44.3
Courses Played: 320
Posts: 4,236
Niced 1,003 Times in 526 Posts
Default

This chart is the one that shows the how much each hole contributed to the information contained in the set of final scores (size of bubbles).

The x-axis is again a measure of how many different scores the hole handed out. The vertical axis shows how well the holes sorted those scores in a non-random way.

All these are for Santa Cruz Masters Cup presented by Innova - National Tour 2018 MPO only.



Two things are notable about the DGC charts. One is that so many holes contributed nothing or even negatively to the information content of the final results. The other is that the chart for Rd1 doesn't look like the chart for Rd2 at all.

Why?

A fairly narrow range of really good players + hardly any big scores (only one hole in one round had mostly 4s) + the well-known tendency of DeLa to influence scores in its own way.
Attached Images
File Type: png Luck3Rds.png (58.4 KB, 166 views)

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 05-25-2018, 05:45 PM
ToddL ToddL is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Greenville, SC
Years Playing: 22.3
Courses Played: 117
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 845
Niced 198 Times in 97 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
808.G.2 states: "If the total score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, two penalty throws are added to the correct total score. Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard."

Generally, that is intended to avoid double penalizing a misplay of some sort (like the one you bring up involving McBeth...2016 Worlds, BTW), but it works in reverse as well, as in a case like Ricky's where a score would be adjusted due to the discovery of an unnecessary extra penalty that needed to be deducted from the originally reported score.
I don't buy it.

808.D: The score for a player on a hole is the total number of throws, including penalty throws. The total score for the round is the sum of all hole scores, plus any additional penalty throws.

808.G: After the scorecard has been turned in, the total score as recorded is final, except for the following circumstances:
1. Penalty throws may be added or removed up until the Director declares the tournament over, or all awards have been distributed.
2. If the total score is incorrect, improperly recorded, or missing, two penalty throws are added to the correct total score. Those penalty throws are not added when the score has been adjusted for other violations determined after the player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.


The way I read this is that the player is responsible for knowing how many penalty strokes are supposed to be applied to his score. If he adds his penalties wrong, his score is wrong. If the TD adds some other penalties after the round that the player wasn't responsible for during the course of the round, then those get added without an incorrect scorecard penalty. (I'm not sure exactly what type of penalty this would be ... breaking the dress code?)

If you came up to me after a round and told me that you might have improperly recorded a penalty stroke on an OB shot ("was I supposed to add a stroke there? If so, it's a 4, not a 3") then I would think you just turned in an incorrect scorecard. Change it to make it correct, then add a 2-stroke penalty.

I mean, I understand your interpretation and might even agree that's how it *should* be, but that's not how I read it.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 05-26-2018, 09:30 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: VT
Courses Played: 1
Posts: 175
Niced 69 Times in 37 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DinosaurThunder View Post
No - what's embarrassing is one of our top pro's continually breaking a rule and not calling himself when it's blatant or other pro's not calling (or seconding it) when it's not as blatant.

Equally embarrassing is the amount of people who want to brush it under the rug as a non-issue. And if being uptight is holding the professionals in our sport to high-level expectations, so be it.
i never said it's a non issue. i'm a huge believer in playing within the rules.

the only time i think ricky should have self confirmed was at the memorial. that was super obvious. i can't think of any other examples where the stance violation was so clear that rick could call it on himself.

what are some examples, other than at the memorial, of stance violations that you think rick should absolutely have called on himself?
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:29 AM
lyleoross's Avatar
lyleoross lyleoross is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Years Playing: 22.7
Courses Played: 2
Posts: 4,173
Niced 952 Times in 574 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
This chart is the one that shows the how much each hole contributed to the information contained in the set of final scores (size of bubbles).

The x-axis is again a measure of how many different scores the hole handed out. The vertical axis shows how well the holes sorted those scores in a non-random way.

All these are for Santa Cruz Masters Cup presented by Innova - National Tour 2018 MPO only.



Two things are notable about the DGC charts. One is that so many holes contributed nothing or even negatively to the information content of the final results. The other is that the chart for Rd1 doesn't look like the chart for Rd2 at all.

Why?

A fairly narrow range of really good players + hardly any big scores (only one hole in one round had mostly 4s) + the well-known tendency of DeLa to influence scores in its own way.
Here's the thing, it would seem to me that a well designed hole would perform similarly round to round. This suggests to me that the holes here don't. In other words, the performance changed significantly. I understand that many things contribute. Am I way off?

Whoops,quoted the wrong chart, meant to grab the other.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:34 AM
lyleoross's Avatar
lyleoross lyleoross is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Years Playing: 22.7
Courses Played: 2
Posts: 4,173
Niced 952 Times in 574 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
i never said it's a non issue. i'm a huge believer in playing within the rules.

the only time i think ricky should have self confirmed was at the memorial. that was super obvious. i can't think of any other examples where the stance violation was so clear that rick could call it on himself.

what are some examples, other than at the memorial, of stance violations that you think rick should absolutely have called on himself?
You have to look and typically, people don't, including Ricky. There's a similar putt from yesterday, watch the smashcutt. It looks like he takes his stance and then shuffles around. The putt yesterday is a harder call. I'm more interested in pointing out that he's focused on the outcome, not the feet. That's why it's on other players to watch.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 05-26-2018, 10:43 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: VT
Courses Played: 1
Posts: 175
Niced 69 Times in 37 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
You have to look and typically, people don't, including Ricky. There's a similar putt from yesterday, watch the smashcutt. It looks like he takes his stance and then shuffles around. The putt yesterday is a harder call. I'm more interested in pointing out that he's focused on the outcome, not the feet. That's why it's on other players to watch.
one more q: do you think ricky's the only person that foot faults? if not, why is he the only player that people complain about?
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:10 AM
swhite swhite is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: central Mass
Posts: 624
Niced 484 Times in 239 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
one more q: do you think ricky's the only person that foot faults? if not, why is he the only player that people complain about?


Agreed.

Because of this and other threads, I have been staring at the players feet much more. And, it is my opinion that lots of throws, from MPO and FPO players, appear to be foot faults to me.

Ricky is under the DGCR microscope at the moment, so any of his mistakes are going to be broadcast for all to see. I am not excusing any of his behavior relating to episodes where he is called out for foot faulting; just saying that it is my view that foot faulting appears to me to be more widespread than just the world champion.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
 

  #260  
Old 05-26-2018, 11:44 AM
lyleoross's Avatar
lyleoross lyleoross is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Houston, TX
Years Playing: 22.7
Courses Played: 2
Posts: 4,173
Niced 952 Times in 574 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
one more q: do you think ricky's the only person that foot faults? if not, why is he the only player that people complain about?
Absolutely not! And it's fair of you to point it out. Ricky has the worst fan club ever. They keep voting him onto the lead card where we can watch him. Combine that with his skill that keeps him there and that means we get to micro examine his mistakes.

However, the fact that one player does it doesn't make it okay that any other player does it. We have a foot fault problem, and frankly, it should be addressed.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.