#11  
Old 10-01-2021, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by timothy42b View Post
If the disc rips off the hand, then isn't the hand applying a force to the disc? (by Newton's equal and opposite)

And if the the disc is moving forward and rips out of the hand, isn't the force applied by the hand demonstrably backward, against the motion of the disc?
Do forward and backward cover it? Does a fulcrum exhibit a backward force on a bar?

I suspect it is a relatively stationary pivot point. My first approach to a power grip was to make as compact a fulcrum point as possible. I think this is wrong headed, though.
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  #12  
Old 10-02-2021, 11:02 AM
timothy42b timothy42b is offline
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Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
Do forward and backward cover it? Does a fulcrum exhibit a backward force on a bar?

.
Good point, these motions are at least on a curve and to some extent probably 3D.

But contrast two feelings. You can feel like your fingers are pulling in the target direction on the inside of the rim of the disc, but that doesn't give you much distance.

If you feel the disc rip out of your hand, then you feel significant force on your finger and there's no way that is toward the target. Also there's a good bit of abrasion and you may get a callus or blister.

I think there's a good chance that a rip point your fulcrum finger is moving at an angle away from the target line, maybe around 90 degrees right of it.
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Old 10-03-2021, 11:06 PM
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Feels to me like the optimal launch approaches the delta dirac function in terms of generating disc velocity at a single moment.



That is, all that matters is max velocity when the disc is pointed where it needs to go.

What Txmx and SW22 highlight is that there is a superposition (stuff adds up independently) principle in play on all these layers of how the velocity is generated.

Velocity is generated with hips/legs, torso, arm, forearm, wrist, and perhaps fingers, each in their own way. Timing is essential because the additive aspect of each muscle's contribution needs to be aligned in time so that the peak velocity is at one moment, the moment of release.

So many of my gains come from not trying to generate more power--not from trying to bench press my max--but rather from not getting in my own way in terms of tightness inhibiting the overlapping contributions from aligning properly. Staying really loose is essential on a high speed throw.

But it's tough, because of all the biomechanical savagery being committed. The body wants to remain stable and in control. The body naturally opposes some of the crazy action being done to create this timing/whip/superposition of forces.

Saying that wrist/tip is most critical makes a lot of sense--not saying I agree with hand/wrist/grip being the most contributive--but in theory, if we are trying to replicate a delta-dirac function, then the most critical phase is when t=0, or in the infinitesimal moments just prior to release, and that is going to be wrist/hand/fingers.

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Old 10-04-2021, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post

Part of my point (theory) is the pull is much less critical than that snap.

Thoughts?
I'll fine tune this just slightly. The first half of the throw, from peak reach back until the disc first crosses your body, is much less critical as the second half of the throw, from the disc crossing your body, into the hit (elbow bent at 90 degrees) and through the whip into ejection.

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HuB spoke about this on YouTube and gave me the idea. He basically said that the first half of your swing, the speed doesn't matter at all, and slow is better because it allows your body and hips to get into motion. I'll try and dig the video up. But what I found most important for me is that I was pulling too fast initially, which had me coming forward waaaay too fast that no amount of bracing could support. Once I slowed that down bracing became easy.

So focus on the initial half of your pull. Really slow that part down and you'll find that your body and hips catch up then get in front of you, so to speak, then whipping the disc out is a lot easier.
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I'm think it could be useful and interesting. Sounds like you are kind of talking about Smash Factor which would be disc speed divided by hand speed, and the Linear Kinematic Sequence.
2 questions:
Is the speed of release equivalent to the volume of a towel crack? I assume so; the faster the whip the louder the crack.

If so, would the speed of release be proportional to the rate of deceleration up through the kinematic sequence?
For instance, when I snap a towel, I can get the loudest crack when I really pull backwards hard. Does the same principal apply to the swing/crack of the dg swing?
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Old 10-13-2021, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semisensei View Post
2 questions:
Is the speed of release equivalent to the volume of a towel crack? I assume so; the faster the whip the louder the crack.

If so, would the speed of release be proportional to the rate of deceleration up through the kinematic sequence?
For instance, when I snap a towel, I can get the loudest crack when I really pull backwards hard. Does the same principal apply to the swing/crack of the dg swing?
A towel snap can be analogous to the swing, or way, way off base. At least, this is how it seems to me trying to relate a towel to the swing.

Whipping someone's ass with a towel in the way most people picture it is not relevant. When I have used a towel to play around, its always like a washcloth, and there is no backwards pull at the end. You can still crack that thing hard without the backwards pull, using actual full blown backhand swing technique.
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Old 10-13-2021, 02:37 PM
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A towel snap can be analogous to the swing, or way, way off base. At least, this is how it seems to me trying to relate a towel to the swing.

Whipping someone's ass with a towel in the way most people picture it is not relevant. When I have used a towel to play around, its always like a washcloth, and there is no backwards pull at the end. You can still crack that thing hard without the backwards pull, using actual full blown backhand swing technique.
Well now this is bugging me because I just played with a washcloth for a bit. There is certainly no deliberate, big backwards motion like I personally do with a full size towel.

But, I think what actually cracks the washcloth is a bounce that does the same basic thing, its just far smaller and still succumbs to a follow-through. I have never really dissected the towel stuff much just played with it a bit because you DO crack the **** out of a washcloth with the same form you can throw a disc with.
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2021, 02:48 PM
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Seems like the brace does what the reversal does with the towel
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