#41  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:15 PM
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markmcc markmcc is offline
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I've played in Texas tournaments where there was a lot of Prickly Pear cactus on the course. At one tournament the TD specifically mentioned that you could take relief from the cactus without a penalty stroke. At another tournament it was never specifically addressed, but the players on my card seemed to feel like it was a standard practice whether stated by the TD or not.
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  #42  
Old 11-10-2019, 07:33 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norvelljeff View Post
I had a situation where a player on my card threw into a very, very dense thorn bush. He claimed "safety" and wanted to take his lie at the edge of the bush, presumable where the disc entered the bush, without penalty. I said no way, if you want to take relief in any way, its a stroke. He argued and we decided on a provisional but ran into the issue of accessing the lie to throw the provisional. He pretty much ended up throwing from the edge of the bush with and without a penalty stoke and counting one of the shots as the provisional. Upon explaining the situation to the TD, he claimed "oh yea, you can take relief for safety without penalty" and the lower score was used. Can somebody tell me how this should have been handled becuase I know that ain't right.
You were correct in that the official rules provide no relief for free due to "safety" (except to move away from harmful animals or insects 803.02). Regardless, any relief he took, penalty or not, should have been line of play relief, not where it entered like OB. Given the dispute, provisionals were the right call. I only hope that one of those provisionals was on the line of play but it's hard to tell from the description.

Seems to me the TD screwed up on the call. To take relief for safety without penalty, the TD would have needed to designate where and when it applies before the round is played so everyone is aware. Absent that declaration, the default is the rule book and the rule book grants no such relief. And, IMO, something being a "standard practice" at the course does NOT count as being a tournament specific rule unless it's actually documented for the tournament...e.g. announced at the player meeting, noted in the caddy book, stated on tee signs or scorecards, etc.

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  #43  
Old 11-10-2019, 10:22 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norvelljeff View Post
I had a situation where a player on my card threw into a very, very dense thorn bush. He claimed "safety" and wanted to take his lie at the edge of the bush, presumable where the disc entered the bush, without penalty. I said no way, if you want to take relief in any way, its a stroke. He argued and we decided on a provisional but ran into the issue of accessing the lie to throw the provisional. He pretty much ended up throwing from the edge of the bush with and without a penalty stoke and counting one of the shots as the provisional. Upon explaining the situation to the TD, he claimed "oh yea, you can take relief for safety without penalty" and the lower score was used. Can somebody tell me how this should have been handled becuase I know that ain't right.
https://www.pdga.com/rules/official-...isc-golf/80302

Quote:
A) A player may obtain relief from the following obstacles that are on or behind the lie: motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, people, or any item or area as designated by the Director. To obtain relief, the player may mark a new lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target, at the nearest point that provides relief.

B) If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, or from marking a disc above or below the playing surface, the player may mark a new lie immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

C) A player who takes relief other than as allowed above receives one penalty throw.

D) A player may elect at any time to take optional relief by declaring their intention to the group. The lie may then be relocated by marking a new lie which is farther from the target, and is on the line of play. One penalty throw is added to the player's score.

E) No penalty throw is added if optional relief is being taken following a penalty taken for a disc out-of-bounds or above two meters.
I bolded the relevant section in A. If the TD had declared that bush or bushes like it to be eligible for free relief, then the lower score would be correct. Otherwise this is just another example of a player not knowing the rules and the TD being equally clueless.

Additionally the "edge of the bush" doesn't sound like back on the line of play.
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  #44  
Old 11-10-2019, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robdeforge View Post
Additionally the "edge of the bush" doesn't sound like back on the line of play.
Which is actually the rub. All the responses to my question not understanding me saying it might as well be OB because you are not getting free relief but the issue here is it would be better if it were OB you could take the relief where he did, where the disc crossed into the zone. But since it’s not you need to take relief on a line back, AND unlike taking relief after an OB throw you cannot take as much as you want back you must take relief back to the first spot you can take a legal stance.

Pretty much landing deep in bad bushes is bad and really really bad if the TD doesn’t declare relief.

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  #45  
Old 11-10-2019, 12:20 PM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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One of the best reasons to keep it in the fairway: feet rules to remember/interpret.
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Old 11-10-2019, 05:25 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
...But since it’s not you need to take relief on a line back, AND unlike taking relief after an OB throw you cannot take as much as you want back you must take relief back to the first spot you can take a legal stance...
Bolded bit is right if the TD declares relief under 803.02.A Relief from Obstacles or under 806.03 Casual Area.

If you're taking optional relief under 803.2.D at the cost of a penalty stroke, then you can go as far back as you want.

Another option available to the TD, is 806.04 Relief Area. Play it as OB but without the penalty stroke. This might be what you're after.



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  #47  
Old 11-10-2019, 08:10 PM
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Correction:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
One of the best reasons to keep it in the fairway: fewer rules to remember/interpret.

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  #48  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
Bolded bit is right if the TD declares relief under 803.02.A Relief from Obstacles or under 806.03 Casual Area.

If you're taking optional relief under 803.2.D at the cost of a penalty stroke, then you can go as far back as you want.
Erg.... this is why I/we should quote the rule when responding. Not just to have more credence to the post but hopefully correct our own mis-remembering.

Declaring certain areas as hazards seems like a good compromise. Then it is just a matter of defining how deep you need to be. Rope would be helpful I guess.
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  #49  
Old 11-11-2019, 04:53 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Pssst... In a Hazard Area, you play your disc where it lies, but with a penalty.

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  #50  
Old 11-11-2019, 06:01 PM
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Continued reading comprehension fails.

I post about as well as I putt

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