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Old 11-05-2019, 03:27 PM
rifo rifo is offline
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Default Arm Speed + Spin correlating with stability?

Is there a correlation between arm speed and disc spin when it comes to stability?

I'm finding on my FH shots I'm turning over my most stable discs and I believe its because im using too much arm and I'm not getting enough snap and spin. Its made me think about how the two are related to each other. If I increase the spin, with the same arm speed, will I see an uptick in stability?

I can see the same thing when it comes to comparing pros throwing the same discs and getting much more flight out of them than me. For example throwing a thunderbird, if I go full rip I can turn it over. But I've seen James Conrad throw 400ft lasers with a thundy. Are the pros able to get more flight because they have a better balance of spin to match their arm speed?

Not saying I should be able to throw 400ft but Im wondering why his dont turn over as much when hes obviously throwing harder/faster.
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:52 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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Good observation. The more the disc spins, the more stable it will fly (ignoring air speed). Forehands get thrown with less spin than backhands, in general, and that's why its easier to turn over a disc throwing forehand than backhand (again, assuming no other factors like OAT).

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Old 11-05-2019, 03:57 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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But more relevant here is probably OAT. That will also cause a disc to fly much more understable.

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Old 11-05-2019, 05:51 PM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UhhNegative View Post
Good observation. The more the disc spins, the more stable it will fly (ignoring air speed). Forehands get thrown with less spin than backhands, in general, and that's why its easier to turn over a disc throwing forehand than backhand (again, assuming no other factors like OAT).
Not true with the forehand, the thing most people do to get forehand spin is use the backwards wrist curl on the disc when throwing the forehand at the very end of the flight just before the release. These people who use this type of throw will have more spin on a disc when driving with it, about the same as when driving.

Last edited by Casey 1988; 11-05-2019 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:06 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifo View Post
Is there a correlation between arm speed and disc spin when it comes to stability?
Maybe. There certainly is on backhand throws, I assume that, with good form, the harder a disc is thrown forehand, the faster it will spin. Just my opinion. It would be interesting to see some kind of study of disc rpm from people throwing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifo View Post
I'm finding on my FH shots I'm turning over my most stable discs and I believe its because im using too much arm and I'm not getting enough snap and spin. Its made me think about how the two are related to each other. If I increase the spin, with the same arm speed, will I see an uptick in stability?
Yes, as UhhNeg alluded, the faster a disc spins, the more stability it should have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifo View Post
I can see the same thing when it comes to comparing pros throwing the same discs and getting much more flight out of them than me. For example throwing a thunderbird, if I go full rip I can turn it over. But I've seen James Conrad throw 400ft lasers with a thundy. Are the pros able to get more flight because they have a better balance of spin to match their arm speed?

Not saying I should be able to throw 400ft but Im wondering why his dont turn over as much when hes obviously throwing harder/faster.
He probably has excellent form. Why wobble (the result of "OAT") makes a disc more understable, I don't know, but it certainly seems to. Do you notice any wobble on your throws? Work to get rid of that if you do.

Also keep in mind that you two are not throwing the same disc. The same mold maybe, but not the same disc. Not all "thundy's" are created equal.

Another "just my opinion" observation is that not all people throw forehands the same way. When I started playing, I adapted my baseball throw and got good distance if not always with a clean release. I also didn't snap my wrist very much. As my elbow has aged , I have moved to more of a wrist flick powered throw that gives me a cleaner release, what I think is a significantly higher spin rate but also less distance (but my elbow thanks me). I used to top out at around 400' forehand but now only manage 320' or so on a good day. There's probably a happy medium, but people with really good form seem to have less of the understability issues with forehands that you seem to be describing.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:02 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey 1988 View Post
Not true with the forehand, the thing most people do to get forehand spin is use the backwards wrist curl on the disc when throwing the forehand at the very end of the flight just before the release. These people who use this type of throw will have more spin on a disc when driving with it, about the same as when driving.
The things you are saying are true, but a backhand still produces more spin.

Someone back me up with a source here. I can't remember where I learned this.

I would think it has to do with the active wrist in a forehand throw vs passive wrist in the backhand throw. I think the passive wrist can move quicker.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:29 PM
rifo rifo is offline
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I do get a wobble in my FH throws, definitely dealing with some OAT issues theres.

Still curious about the spin however. If we think about driving putters for example, If I lean into my putters I can push 200' with a stable throwing putter like an envy but if I go harder, it can flip.

I likely dont have perfect BH form but what I think you guys are saying is is a cleaner release on axis will give the disc more stability.

Its very interesting because I assumed a wobbly OAT forehand would slow down faster and end up being more stable..
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:44 PM
rifo rifo is offline
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The more I think about it, im sure OAT is the cause of all the understability. Especially when I try and put more power into it my form dips.

Looks like I got some work to do.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UhhNegative View Post
The things you are saying are true, but a backhand still produces more spin.

Someone back me up with a source here. I can't remember where I learned this.

I would think it has to do with the active wrist in a forehand throw vs passive wrist in the backhand throw. I think the passive wrist can move quicker.
I think the difference in spin rate between FH and BH is mostly due to the difference in where your grip starts on the disc and how your arm/elbow bends going in opposite directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin Hemmings
Disc Spin Test Results

I have designed and tested a method for measuring the RPM's of a thrown disc. This design utilizes an on board LCD readout taken from a Powerball Gyroscope. This small computer counts the revolutions of a revolving magnet. It can keep track of total RPM's, as well as a maximum RPM which is conveniently held in memory until either exceeded or manually reset. I then constructed a lightweight vertical tail/boom and fastened it to a pin in the discs center. I then attached a doughnut shaped magnet to the boom. This magnet is set to pass directly over the computer sensor. When the disc is the thrown the tail tracks in a straight back position, while the sensor and disc spin.

My initial prediction was that when thrown, a disc would essentially be rolling out of your hand. For an example a golf disc rolling along the ground at 60 mph would be spinning at 2325 RPM, and I thought the same RPM would happen with a disc is thrown through the air at 60 mph.

My test plan was to use my radar gun in conjunction with the RPM disc to get an accurate range of data.The results can be seen in the graph below. I was definitely surprised by the variance in spin. I made an effort to throw each test shot with the same form and technique. As a disc is thrown harder, say over 70 mph the spin of the disc can actually drop below what it was at 50 mph. I can throw 80 mph at my max and the spin at this speed is right around 2000 rpm. A theory is that the wrist can't keep up with really fast arm speeds, and can't supply an ever increasing amount of spin. As an example I never broke 2330 RPM during my tests, and that spin was with a 54 mph throw!

I also tested half a dozen sidearm throws. I have a "no wobble" side arm that uses allot of wrist snap. The results were conclusive that sidearm has 25% less inherent spin than a backhand throw. I assume that is why so many peoples sidearm throws wobble. It is also possible to increase or decrease spin purposefully, although I found this to be impractical and awkward. A disc with extra spin does seem to resist low speed fade better than a disc with less spin. Strangely, when I tried to spin the hell out of a disc it would sometimes show less rpm's than a normal throw?!

I realize that individual form and technique might show very different results. My friend Jim tried the RPM disc and seemed to have a noticeably higher spin-to-speed ratio than me. He really cocks his wrist, while I keep mine tight like a spring. I hope you guys find these results interesting!



note: Erin is currently building a disc launching machine, which spins the disc up at a chosen rpm and then launches it. This device has adjustable hyzer angle, and adjustable vertical angle of release. It has been tested ejecting a disc @109 mph into a radar gun, then net. (historically, the fastest recorded disc throw was 85 mph). This device will then make it possible to find the correlation between spin and distance. It will also allow any disc to be measured for distance and any desired flight characteristics during calm conditions and in a precise and repeatable way. It's cool. Will post pics and results in the near future.
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:13 AM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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^^^^
Erin Hemmings straight line in the graph above is a little misleading unless you look closely at the data. The straight line represents the "Theoretical Rolling Speed." The RPM actually reaches a plateau when the best fit curve for the data is used.

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