#541  
Old 08-27-2019, 10:47 AM
bwgort bwgort is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
It had been approved in 2017 for the 2018 new rules book & competition manual, but was 'suspended' before the rule being activated, to be precise.
https://www.pdga.com/2018-pdga-compe...s-explanations
Yes, it was never active because there were large problems with the ability for a TD to collect payment for the PDGA after an event. It was not well thought out.
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  #542  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:58 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
Just think of other sports...
How many sports even allow non-members & non-current members to compete in sanctioned events?!?!?
Fill in your idolised pro football team, and your local am football team's name, and then see if they would allow you to walk up to their game and say you wanted to join for their upcoming game whilst being a non-member.
"other sports aren't like this" is not a very convincing argument IMO. disc golf is different in so many ways, which is often a good thing.

the $10 fee for non members playing in sanctioned events seems like a perfectly fine compromise

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  #543  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:23 AM
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It goes back to the "all things are not the same" situation.

Back in the 90's you couldn't expect to have any sort of PDGA event without non-members because there were not enough members to pull it off. The scene I was part of then has grown and now can hold an A Tier that requires membership because there are enough members to do that now. I don't live there anymore, though. Where I live we have had a course for less than 10 years. It's back to the "not enough members to pull it off" scenario. To hold any sort of PDGA event we HAVE to have non-members sign up. Give us another 20 years and maybe we won't, but there will be some other place that just put in a course and will be trying to build a scene. So long as "PDGA" is the overall sport umbrella governing both Pro and Am events, it's going to have to allow non-members to play in order for new amateur scenes to grow.

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  #544  
Old 08-28-2019, 01:25 PM
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Arisugawa Arisugawa is online now
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
It goes back to the "all things are not the same" situation.

Back in the 90's you couldn't expect to have any sort of PDGA event without non-members because there were not enough members to pull it off. The scene I was part of then has grown and now can hold an A Tier that requires membership because there are enough members to do that now. I don't live there anymore, though. Where I live we have had a course for less than 10 years. It's back to the "not enough members to pull it off" scenario. To hold any sort of PDGA event we HAVE to have non-members sign up. Give us another 20 years and maybe we won't, but there will be some other place that just put in a course and will be trying to build a scene. So long as "PDGA" is the overall sport umbrella governing both Pro and Am events, it's going to have to allow non-members to play in order for new amateur scenes to grow.
It is an interesting dilemma to have. The need to grow the sport vs. the integrity of the competition.

In my long line of athletics, disc golf is the first organized competition where the sanctioned events I attend sometimes begin with a meeting where the individual in charge says, "This is a sanctioned event. You are responsible for knowing and playing by the rules. If you don't know them, don't be surprised if someone who does know them gives you a penalty if you failed to follow them."

I've had players on my card fail to mark their lie, hole out correctly, jump putt within 8 feet of the target, etc, not out of malice, but because they were honestly never educated on what the proper rule or etiquette was. It puts the experienced players in a very awkward position to have to enforce situations that should not have to be addressed.

This is a bit off topic, obviously, and probably should be in a different thread, but again, it's an interesting dilemma.

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  #545  
Old 08-30-2019, 01:36 AM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
45 pages later and here's the fact:

Laura is still the Fa40 world champ.
Laura and other transgenders who meet the minimum requirements to play Female still can if approved by the PDGA Medical Committee.

You know, right where we all started.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the facts. Here is mine:

1. Laura is not female and cannot be female. Even if one assumes that Laura is female, she hasn't been female for 40 plus years and therefor arguably doesn't qualify for the Fa40 division still. (kinda joking or am I? )

2. There is no point to a female-only division if males are permitted to play. Why is there a female-only division? Because:

3. Advantages in sports cannot be reduced to hormone levels and muscle mass alone. Other factors borne of sexual dimorphism contribute to males having advantages, such as more robust skeletons, stronger ligaments, increased coordination, about 30 percent greater lung volume per body mass, 10 percent higher red blood cell count, higher hemoglobin, and thus greater oxygen-carrying capacity. Males also heal faster and have higher pain tolerance due to higher clotting ability.

4. But most related to our sport, the biggest advantage males have over women is the ability to throw objects: https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...?noredirect=on

Quote:
Haspel cites research by University of North Texas professor Jerry Thomas that found “the overhand throwing gap, beginning at 4 years of age, is three times the difference of any other motor task.” And the gap just gets bigger as girls and boys become women and men. By age 15, Thomas says, nearly every boy “throws better than the best girl.” His research shows that nurture does play a role—in many cultures, boys are more likely to be trained in throwing than girls are, essentially from birth. But among “aboriginal Australian children, who grow up in a culture where both men and women hunt, and both sexes throw from childhood,” while the gap in both throwing technique and projectile velocity might be smaller, it’s still significant.
Quote:
The power in an overhand throw — and in a golf swing, a tennis serve or a baseball swing — comes from the separate turning of hips and shoulders. The hips rotate forward and the body opens, and then the shoulders snap around. Women tend to rotate their hips and shoulders together, and even expert women throwers don’t get the differential that men get. “The one-piece rotation is the biggest difference,” says Thomas. “It keeps women from creating speed at the hand.” Even when women learn to rotate hips and shoulders separately, they don’t do it as fast as men.
Throwing objects well is unique to the human condition due to evolutionary biology and natural selection. Humans evolved to become bipedal and large brained, freeing their arms for increased tool making and implementation. As the stronger, faster, and more enduring between the two sexes, men evolved as the hunters and killed their prey using projectiles for the vast majority of the species' existence. From stones, to spears, to atlatls, men have specifically evolved to be exponentially better at hitting a target with objects than women. Hormone replacement therapy and cosmetic surgery cannot undo millions of years of evolution and the inheritance of our hominid ancestors.

For an in-depth understanding why transwomen have an unfair advantage with biological women: https://www.usapowerlifting.com/wp-c...eport-2019.pdf

But the IOC has the same policy! Yes and no.
Quote:
The current World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) guidelines for transgender athletes clearly state, “It is not the purpose of this medical information to define the criteria for the eligibility of these athletes to participate in competitive sport, which is entirely left to the different sporting federations and organizations” (WADA, 2017) [emphasis added]. Additionally, the IOC guidelines clearly state, “Nothing in these guidelines is intended to undermine in any way the requirement to comply with the World Anti-Doping Code and the WADA International Standards” (IOC, 2015)
It is my understanding that where a transgender athlete can compete is ultimately up to the sporting federation or organization, in this case the PDGA, not the IOC. So the IOC simply shifted jurisprudence to the individual organizations to decide the fairness of transgendered athletes competing in their respective sport. The IOC has a blanket policy that can be overruled if the organization deems that being male confers too great an advantage that HRT can't nullify. If this understanding is correct, than using the IOC policy as a defense amounts to nothing more than a thinly veiled appeal to authority fallacy. Furthermore, the IOC apparently has no idea what they're doing anyway and appear to be altering their vague guidelines already from a 10nmol/L of testosterone limit to anywhere from 3 to 5nmol/L.
Quote:
Genel suggests 5 nmol/L, but concedes the number is somewhat arbitrary. Genel says he's sure that having more testosterone gives an athlete some advantage, but he says no one knows how much. [emphasis added]
Quote:
There's the issue of not knowing how many nanomoles of testosterone enhance performance, or by how much. There's no evidence about whether the difference is greater in some sports than in others. Testosterone levels vary during the day and after athletic performance, so when should tests be done? And what is a standard testosterone level for trans women undergoing hormone therapy?

"We’re really handicapped by is how little data there is," Genel said.
So the strongest argument that it's fair for transwomen to compete in female divisions because their hormone levels are similar is admittedly dubious at best according to one of the IOC medical commission's members.

I fully understand that in today's politically charged climate that this stance is tantamount to making me literally Hitler. Those of you that disagree with my stance are permitted to ad hominem away at me and call me everything from bigot, homophobe, etc as you like. It's a free country, kind of. However I will not respond or entertain any such responses so I wouldn't bother. That being said, I have no quarrel with transgenders playing disc golf nor am I attacking their lifestyle at large. They can identify however they see fit as long as it doesn't come to the detriment of others (in this case, female disc golfers). I mean no offense in asserting that transwomen are not and cannot be real aka biological women. It's the foundation of this argument and cannot be ignored in favor of protecting anyone's feelings. This is a position based in biology, not politics. For future replies, I also don't mean any offense if I use disfavored pronouns. I don't believe any individual is entitled to a particular pronoun and that pronoun usage is the speaker's prerogative, based on societal norms. I'll use "she/her" for the transwomen in this thread to be civil but if I slip up and use "he/him" there is no malicious intent.

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  #546  
Old 08-30-2019, 05:33 AM
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discerdoo discerdoo is offline
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Will this thread never die?
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  #547  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:24 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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No one is calling you Hitler, or comparing you with Hitler.
I certainly don't, and last time I checked, the topic was insurrected in my 'honour', not yours.

Whether you like it or not. Whether you agree with it or not. Whether you belief it's right or not. Whether you belief it's fair or not, two things remain valid:
1.) I am the current and reigning FA40 World Champion, and as such the first openly transgender disc golf world champion.
2.) The PDGA, after careful review by the Medical Committee, have approved me for competing in gender-protected divisions earlier this year, I submitted suppoting evidence and documentation for BOTH paths to eligibilty, and got approved for both.

Will my winning that title, and the resulting commotion online be touched upon next Tuesday at my first PDGA Board of Directors teleconforence after being elected? Possibly.
Will the PDGA ask/tell me to give up my title? I very highly doubt that. Really.
The motion regulating accepting the policy ss we now know it was approved 6-0-0 this spring.
See page 3-4, https://www.pdga.com/files/2019-3-12...utes_final.pdf
I have not seen anything in the meeting minutes since that point towards reverting that decision.

And I can already guarantee and promise you, I will NOT be voting on a motion to uphold or revert that decision if that were to happen during my tenure. I will abstain. To avoid anyone from accusing me of 'pushing a transgender agenda'.
Will I share my opinion on the topic with the Board if that topic were tabled? Absolutely.
Will I try to convince them of voting in favour of a for-me-beneficial outcome? No.
As is to be expected of any elected governing body, each individual on said body is expected to have personal bias, but is also expected to not simply vote in favour of that bias for personal gain, or seek to influence others to do so.

And as for my being female or not, being a woman or not. I will repeat:
1. my passport unequivocally confirms I am female
2. legally, socially, visually, formally, emotionally, financially, bathroomingly, dress-codily, even the ability to distinguish between peach, mauve, ginger, salmon, pink, and rose, I am female, I am woman.
3. Point #2 will be verifiable by force if you were to perform visual physical checks, my external sexual characteristics are in line with that of a cisgender woman.

On the debate of chromosomes, you do not know what my karyotype is, you only know - by my own admission - what my phenotype was.
And phenotype, genotype, and karyotype do NOT always align. Hermaphroditism and intersex conditions being well documented of said non-alignment.

You do not know whether I am XY (what was once believed irrefutable proof of being male). Assumptions have been, and will continue to be, made, but without any actual proof, these are just that, assumptions.
For all you know, I could even have YCM, or XX male syndrome.

On the physical aspects of the players vying for that title in FA40 (small focus group, but also directly involved)
I was 'out-monkey-ed', and out-length-ed, and out-muscle-toned (combined with low fat percentage) by 2 of the 5 other semi-finalists, and out-shoulderwidth-ed by a different combination of 2 out of 5, making for a nice mix of "no one really stood out based on physicality".
Kerri (2nd), Amy (5th) and myself being the tall and lanky type, Erin (6th) being lanky, and Mila (3rd), and Tammy (4th) being larger-framed, and shorter and shortest respectively. Would you put Mila's total muscle mass on the scale, I'd actually be NOT-surprised if their muscle mass were to be higher than mine.

On the testosterone debate; transgender women - me included, typically have LESS of it than cisgender men. That typically puts transgender women under the IOC-mandated 10nmol/l threshold. Well below, actually.
Typically, said transgender women ALSO have testosterone levels below that of a cisgender woman's.

The IAAF have, for 3 of their just over 30 recognised events (it would appear this is to spite Caster Semenya, but they supposedly did so by verifying which events' esults have the larger variance between men's and women's divisions), stipulated that the threshold lies at 5nmol/l.

In an ideal world. I would tend to agree with this lower threshold with regards to transgender women, as it will still be slightly above typical values for cisgender women, instead of slightly above the abnormal values for cisgender women.
BUT, this amount also is a double edged sword, as with the threshold set at 5nmol/l cisgender women, or hyperandrogenous women who can and do create testosterone in excess of 5nmol/l, will be disallowed to compete in gender-protected divisions (lest they artificially lower their naturally occurring testosterone levels).
And THAT is physiologically the same as telling Michael Phelps, whose body creates far less lactic acid (resulting in less physical fatique), he should artificially take lactic acid to level the playing field.
Or telling Ralph Sampson or Boban Marjanovic (extremely basket ball players, FYI) they are too tall to play basket ball.
Or a cyclist with exceptional lung capacity - or oxygen absorption - they need to have one nostril taped shut.

Caster Semenya being a very visible case in women with naturally occurring high levels of testosterone, but she is not alone, she is mereley the most talked about.


I can not guarantee that my testosterone levels are typical for all transgender women, but so far, the ones I talked with - those with AND those without any athletic ambitions, ie. I am not selecting subjects, and thus skewing results in my favour - all report their bloodserum levels of testosterone on or below the LOW END of the normal range for women. Only one transgender woman I know, and she has nno athletic ambitions other than commuting to her work by bike, and whose measurements (weight, height, circumference) resemble that of Paige Pierce, yet she is well in her 40's, has reported testosterone levels as high as 1.8nmol, which places her in the normal range of normal values for transgender women.

Until the IOC, and with them, the countless other sports authorities, have found a better way to address the athletically important physiological differences between men and women, it is to be considered the fairest method available.


So, you want to disallow transgender women from competing because they have longer limbs, ie. more kinetic leverage? Make 'monkey factor' divisions, separating Eveliina Salonen from Sarah Hokom, and separating Jeremy Koling from Paul McBeth.
You want to disallow transgender women from competing because they have more weight, ie. more intertia and weight shift to bring to the table when hurling their discs forward? Make weight classes, separating Burl Berlogar from Elaine King, and separating Val Jenkins from Paige Pierce.
You want to disallow transgender women from competing because they have more muscle mass? Make weight mass classes, separating Sarah Hokom from Paige Pierce.
You want to regulate specific bodily measurements but not others, you are on a slope so slippery you will have effectively killed physical excellence.

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  #548  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:26 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is online now
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Will this thread never die?
As long as discourse is done in a civil manner, and/or I don't stop breathing, I guess it'll stay alive.

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  #549  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:35 AM
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discerdoo discerdoo is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
As long as discourse is done in a civil manner, and/or I don't stop breathing, I guess it'll stay alive.
Maybe you and Bro D could just PM each other. It's all been said on this thread already.
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  #550  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:59 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Originally Posted by discerdoo View Post
Maybe you and Bro D could just PM each other. It's all been said on this thread already.
you could also choose not to read...

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