#271  
Old 11-02-2016, 05:00 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Didn'tSeeThatTree View Post
If the best player wins then who cares? No one cares about disc golf looking "silly"...except maybe a handful of weirdos online hehe.

Personally I think -36 is great...birdies are fun! Heaven forbid something be fun.
I agree! Let's raise par on every hole a stroke! Birdies everywhere! Eagles galore!
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  #272  
Old 11-02-2016, 06:21 PM
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Consult20 Consult20 is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
... I'll also remind you that in surveys of membership, our members consistently come back with, grow the sport and get national sponsors. I guarantee Nike, Addidas and other national sponsors care.
So it comes down to which looks better (or worse) to potential sponsors and the outside world:

1) Par 2's (mini golf connotations)

Or

2) Relatively lower scores to par than traditional golf (the sport could be perceived as too easy)

That's not considering course or basket modifications.

Maybe someone should do a poll.
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  #273  
Old 11-02-2016, 07:07 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Didn'tSeeThatTree View Post
If the best player wins then who cares? No one cares about disc golf looking "silly"...except maybe a handful of weirdos online hehe.

Personally I think -36 is great...birdies are fun! Heaven forbid something be fun.
The person pouring tons of effort and resources into making disc golf a spectator sport, cares. Or, at least, cares enough to ask the question. He started this thread.
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  #274  
Old 11-02-2016, 07:12 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by Consult20 View Post
So it comes down to which looks better (or worse) to potential sponsors and the outside world:

1) Par 2's (mini golf connotations)

Or

2) Relatively lower scores to par than traditional golf (the sport could be perceived as too easy)

That's not considering course or basket modifications.

Maybe someone should do a poll.
#2 might be a little more nuanced than that. To some it may be making disc golf look too easy. But it also might just look odd---thinking that "par" is a standard, but one nowhere near the scores of the leaders. Or just that it's not very informative, of what players should be getting on a particular hole, or how they're doing mid-round.
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  #275  
Old 11-02-2016, 07:26 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Lyle,
Since I can't think of another sport besides golf (bg) that uses the term "par" as a major parameter, as long as we continue to use it also we will inextricably be connected with bg. Like it or not! So yes, IMO we HAVE to consider / think in terms of / etc. bg. They were there first and we copied the whole concept of "try to get from here to there in the fewest number...".
Karl
Ps: I'm not sure why the distain for bg / comparison to such?
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  #276  
Old 11-02-2016, 07:29 PM
josephreese josephreese is offline
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The top pros are the outliers. It seems so strange to me that instead of bringing only their relative scores down by making tournaments harder for them, we're considering lowering everyones scores by changing what par means.

I'm not a big fan of par anyway, so whether my score of 62 represents +8 or +14 won't affect me much or for very long. Still, that course of action seems unnecessary since if affects so many people for whom the problem doesn't exist.
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  #277  
Old 11-02-2016, 08:10 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by josephreese View Post
The top pros are the outliers. It seems so strange to me that instead of bringing only their relative scores down by making tournaments harder for them, we're considering lowering everyones scores by changing what par means.

I'm not a big fan of par anyway, so whether my score of 62 represents +8 or +14 won't affect me much or for very long. Still, that course of action seems unnecessary since if affects so many people for whom the problem doesn't exist.
From the perspective of someone trying to market disc golf as a spectator sport, the top pros aren't such outliers. And that's who started this thread.
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  #278  
Old 11-02-2016, 08:52 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by josephreese View Post
The top pros are the outliers. It seems so strange to me that instead of bringing only their relative scores down by making tournaments harder for them, we're considering lowering everyones scores by changing what par means.
We're not trying to change what par means. We're trying to get TD's to set par consistently so that it actually does mean something.

Once we do that, you'll become a big fan of par.

We can also make tournaments harder.

We can also use modified pars for divisions other than Open, so everyone can have pars meaningful for their competition. (But that's a different topic.)
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  #279  
Old 11-02-2016, 09:27 PM
gdub58 gdub58 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
For all but a handful of tournaments (those where the best in the world show up and play a tough course), winning scores of way under par are not a result of the winner playing so much better than an Expert, but a symptom of par that was set too high.

Just like other symptoms, we shouldn’t get comfortable ignoring it all the time just because 1% of the time it doesn’t indicate a problem.
Maybe I'm just dense, but I still don't see the problem.

It sounds like you are referencing the "minor" tournaments (the local/regional B and C tiers). I've played in a lot of these, and it is exceedingly rare in those tournaments for par to be referenced - the scorecards are usually generic (just listing hole numbers) or, if we're lucky, it has the distances of the holes. The boards with all of the cards and results list total scores (I have never seen +/- par referenced on these), and I have never heard pars mentioned in a players meeting. The only place I see +/- pars referenced is on the pdga site, and I only pay attention to those to see how many strokes separated players in the different divisions.

You have tried to present "correct par" as a means to help players gauge what score they should expect on a hole or to estimate whether or not they should expect to cash. As I have been saying, players understand what a good score on a hole is without par, and there is too much variability in the composition of each division from tournament to tournament to expect that a TD can provide this benchmark for cashing.

So I'll ask my question a little more specifically - if the winning score for a tournament is -36, for whom does that create a problem? Is it the players, the potential spectators, or someone else?
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  #280  
Old 11-02-2016, 09:48 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by gdub58 View Post
So I'll ask my question a little more specifically - if the winning score for a tournament is -36, for whom does that create a problem? Is it the players, the potential spectators, or someone else?
If that -36 is relative to correctly set par, there is no problem.

If it comes from calling an SSA=45 course a par 65, then:

https://sites.google.com/site/discgo.../Par-Important
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